19830917 Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 19.136-138

The following is a lecture given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami on September 17th, 1983 in Atlanta, Georgia. The class begins with a reading from the Śrī Caitanya-Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, Chapter 19, verse 136 through 138.

Jayapatākā Swami: The instructions given by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, 500 years ago to Śrī Rupa Gosvāmī, in... in Prayāga... I believe it’s in Prayāga, what is today known as Allahabad, the place of the Kumbha Melā, where 1977, 31 million people attended, largest festival in the world. At that place you can still today see the Daśāśvamedha-ghāṭa, where Lord Caitanya had this discussion with Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Text 136

prabhu kahe,—śuna, rūpa, bhakti-rasera lakṣaṇa
sūtra-rūpe kahi, vistāra nā yāya varṇana

Translation: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “My dear Rūpa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service.

Text 137

pārāpāra-śūnya gabhīra bhakti-rasa-sindhu
tomāya cākhāite tāra kahi eka ‘bindu’

Translation: The ocean of the transcendental mellow of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breath, however just to help you taste it I am describing but one drop.

Text 138

eita brahmāṇḍa bhari’ ananta jīva-gaṇa
caurāśī-lakṣa yonite karaye bhramaṇa

Translation: “In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe.

Purport (by His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda): This is a challenge to so-called scientists and philosophers who presume that there are living entities on this planet only. So-called scientists are going to the moon, and they say that there is no life there. This does not tally with Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s version. He says that everywhere within the universe there are unlimited numbers of living entities in 8,400,000 different forms. In the Bhagavad-gītā (2.24) we find that the living entities are sarva-gata, which means that they can go anywhere. This indicates that there are living entities everywhere. They exist on land, in water, in air, in fire and in ether. Thus there are living entities in all types of material elements. Since the entire material universe is composed of five elements—earth, water, fire, air and ether—why should there be living entities on one planet and not others? Such a foolish version can never be accepted by Vedic students. From the Vedic literatures we understand that there are living entities on each and every planet, regardless of whether the planet is composed of earth, water, fire or air. These living entities may not have the same forms that are found on this planet earth, but they have different forms composed of different elements. Even on this earth we can see that the forms of land animals are different from the forms of aquatics. According to the circumstance, living conditions differ, but undoubtedly there are living entities everywhere. Why should we deny the existence of living entities on this or that planet? Those who have claimed to have gone to the moon have not gone there, or else with their imperfect vision they cannot actually perceive the particular type of living entities there.

The living entities are described as ananta, or unlimited; nonetheless, they are said to belong to 8,400,000 species. As stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa:

jala-jā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati
kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam
triṁśal-lakṣāṇi paśavaḥ catur-lakṣāṇi mānuṣāḥ

”There are 900,000 species living in the water. There are also 2,000,000 nonmoving living entities (sthāvara), such as trees and plants. There are also 1, 100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and there are 1,000,000 species of birds. As far as quadrupeds are concerned, there are 3,000,000 varieties, and there are 400,000 human species.” Some of these species may exist on one planet and not on another, but in any case within all the planets of the universe—and even in the sun—there are living entities. This is the verdict of the Vedic literatures. As the Bhagavad-gītā (2.20) confirms:

na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin
nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ
ajo nityaḥ śāśvato ’yaṁ purāṇo
 na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre

”For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.”

Since the living entities are never annihilated, they simply transmigrate from one life form to another. Thus there is an evolution of forms according to the degree of developed consciousness. One experiences different degrees of consciousness in different forms. A dog’s consciousness is different from a man’s. Even within a species we find that a father’s consciousness is different from his son’s and that a child’s consciousness is different from a youth’s. Just as we find different forms, we find different states of consciousness. When we see different states of consciousness, we may take it for granted that the bodies are different. In other words, different types of bodies depend on different states of consciousness. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (8.6):

yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajanty ante kalevaram
taṁ tam evaiti kaunteya sadā tad bhāva-bhāvitaḥ

“One’s consciousness at the time of death determines one’s type of body in the next life.” This is the process of transmigration of the soul. A variety of bodies is already there; we change from one body to another in terms of our consciousness.

Thus end the Purport by His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, of the Śrī Caitanya-Caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, Chapter 19, Text 138

Jayapatākā Swami: So, here Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is revealing to Rupa Gosvāmī, the secret of transmigration of the soul. Actually this is a very basic understanding in Vedic culture, so he is just, as a review practically, just passing through it. Won’t be giving that much detailed time but He will be giving point by point, because in 10 days he going to be covering the complete Vedic understanding and we are getting a synopsis of that. Transmigration of the soul is known in modern terminology… in Western terminology, as reincarnation.

Reincarnation is actually not an exactly appropriate term, because it somehow say... signifies that you somehow incarnate, you become carnal or you become flesh and then again you don’t become flesh and become some… the term itself, if you divide up the word at a mod… how do you say that?

Devotee: Etymologically.

Jayapatākā Swami: Anyway, if you divide it up according its definition, it’s very difficult to… it is very simple to understand the meaning, and that meaning isn't exactly correct, because what happens in the transmigration of the soul is that each form of body is already there. There is already in a seed form, different type of insects, different types of animals, different types of human beings, and one doesn’t become flesh, one always remains the consciousness or the spirit and enters as a living force into the new body right into the womb of the mother at the time of conception, and from there the… when the soul is present, then there is a development of the embryo or whatever the species may be, development of seed, embryo and until finally there is a birth. If the soul is not a present it would be a still-birth, or a miscarriage.

As long as the soul is present there will be a development of embryo, development of the body. Once the soul leaves, then the body stops growing and stops functioning. So, how many types of bodies... you see, nowadays, you have biologist, geologist, there are various people researching all the various species of life, studying each one for their whole life, but one thing is mentioned here that when we leave our body, at that time we normally call as death, we don’t die. We go on and according to our consciousness we again achieve a new body; If our consciousness is very elevated, then we achieve a elevated form. If our consciousness is very base then we achieve some inferior form, just appropriate to our consciousness. So, here we have some scientists who have developed their consciousness, and they are absorbing themselves deep, deeply into the habit of the of the cockroach, it’s mating habits, it’s all the various habits, or some rare Qui Qui bird or something. If they die thinking of that bird or the cockroach or the insect, what is their destination? There is a good possibility that if they don’t have any other spiritual asset, they may also learn firsthand what it is to be one of those creatures, by becoming that in their next birth, or taking that body on. If they have spiritual asset, then of course, their consciousness would be more elevated. Depends on how your consciousness is formed. So the time of leaving this body, whatever we are absorbed in, at that moment, that’s what we achieved in our next life. So, the basic process of yoga means to form the consciousness or purify the consciousness, so that it comes to the highest pure level, so that when we leave this body we don’t again have to take rebirth, we can go back to God, back to Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So, if our consciousness is filled with Kṛṣṇa consciousness then naturally when we leave our body, we go back to God. If our consciousness is filled with altruistic work, we may become a demigod or may become a… a living entity in a very elevated material platform, but we all again have to take a rebirth and death. We're not free from the cycle of reincarnation or transmigration. If we are absorbed in a profit like most materialistic human beings we may again become a human being, and if a person dies in complete ignorance as a madman or a drunkard or in intoxication then they may become an animal or a tree. In India, you find that there are certain trees where the two trees come out at the same time right from the base, and one of them's... they grow, right, one tree completely grows over the other tree, but... they're two different trees, but they completely intertwine and they grow over each other. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was describing that, when man and women died while they were having sex, then they can take birth like that, as a tree, because at that… that time they were very absorbed in a body consciousness, so then they are able to achieve that type of birth, therefore the Vedas says that no one should engage in sex while travelling on a train, or while... not... I mean, while travelling and so on because at time if you die it's very dangerous. So, in this way, according to one's consciousness, the time of death, we achieve our next birth. So, everyone has to die, sooner or later, so therefore death for a yogī is not a fearful thing, it’s just a question of being prepared, so during lifetime we prepare our consciousness by chanting:

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

Which powerful mantra is able to actually bring the consciousness to the pure platform. Actually in every age there are various types of processes recommended for self-realization or God realization. In the first age it was recommended to do mediation, in the second age it is recommended to do fire sacrifice, in the previous age before this age it was recommended to do worship in temples, but in this particular age the process recommended is the chanting of mantras, specially the holy names of Kṛṣṇa,

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

So actually the Vedas are short cutting. There is no need for the scientist to try to figure it out, how many type of fish there are, how many type of insects. The Vedas automatically tell, "Alright there are about 900 thousand types of fish in the basic categories." you see, "There are so many types of insects." you don’t have to do all the research, because when Kṛṣṇa created the world, He knew how many things, the basic categories, there were. Some of them are not always visible, dinosaurs are certain category, left over from the previous age but they are not present now, they may be present on some other planet, they may be here in the seed form. When the proper environment comes again, they'll come out.

Like that there are many species, not all of them are existing at the same time in the same planet, It doesn’t mean that because we breathe oxygen... the plants are breathing what’s it? Carbon-dioxide, according to scientist, and… the fish they are able to exist on oxygen in the water but very minute quantities, dissolved in water. And like this there are so… even on this planet there are different type of balances created, to the plants, the animals. It doesn’t mean that in other planets, similar chemicals are in different types of life systems are completely different than what we know here. And it is not that every life system is also on a gross platform. There are also very many subtle living entities who are not normally even visible to even our eye sight.

Just like we cant see so many microorganisms living in the air, but under microscopic inspection we can find that they are there. So everything is relative. Just like ants has a whole society, a whole city, one little hill. So similarly we are looking down the ants thinking that, “Oh! These ants are so insignificant, we are the human beings, we have the our big city, just see they are creating this minute little you see, ant city, what a ridiculous civilization. Prabhupāda, one time in the holy-dhāma of Māyāpur, he said "Just like we look down on the ants, there are creatures and other living entities in other planets looking down on the human beings, modern cities and thinking, 'What is this ridiculous thing?'" Looking down, their life, their intelligence, their ability, are proportionately greater as ours are greater than the ants.

One day as we calculate it, and one night, this is the basic system of measurement... so in the higher planets there are entities whose six months by our calculation is their one day. That means that in the period of one year, they have one day and one night, and they are living thousands of years under that calculation, 365 days in a year each day equaling six months, each night six months. There is also evidence that in the previous ages, in the previous Kali-yuga as the cycle goes from Golden, to Silver, Bronze and Iron, that this is the Kali-yuga, the age of quarrel, dissention, hypocrisy, so it mentions in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that in the previous Kali-yuga many millions of years ago, there was inter-stellar wars, done by missiles, and at that time a form of Lord Buddha came and stopped by engaging the warring people in more peaceful occupations of self-realization.

So factually speaking, the methods by which modern science is trying to probe into what is the universe is so ridiculous, is so… they are sending off this space ship that just left our solar system, and supposed to reach the next solar system or something, in million… 50,000 years or 18,000 years or something, and they put a little medallion in it.… a naked man and a naked woman standing there with a little kid, and some other articles, trying to identify this is from our planet. This mental...

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...they are doing is so ridiculous, you see. What is actually the universe, they have no clue, night they are just sitting here and then are getting a few radio bounces and then they are thinking, "What does that mean? what is this... we are getting this light, maybe there is some chromium on that planet or some different elements." and they are trying to figure out everything like that. The Vedas are clearly describing, because the great yogīs by their psychic power, they can leave their body and go and travel all over the universe, and so for the higher levels all these playing around they are doing is very ridiculous, there is no value whatsoever.

So, rather than just wait for 18,000 years waiting for the message to come back from the next solar system, when none of us will be around, the short cut given by the Vedas, "Alright you wanna know what the universe is like, this is what it is like." And there is no other book or collection of literatures in the world which has revealed all of this information. It’s in the Vedas that atomic energy was revealed. It was Hitler got the idea of atomic weapons from the Vedas. And It was only due to the CIA that they got it from Hitler and were able to beat him at the punch, but the original whole atomic theory is coming from the Vedas, written in Sanskrit codes over 5,000 years ago. So, what the Vedic literatures are containing, you see… they give a broad description of how to overcome the laws nature and how to achieve perfection in life, but the culmination of course is that actually all type of material achievements in themselves are temporary because the universe itself after so many millions of years will also be finally destroyed. Even though it maybe billions of years, one time it will also have it’s end, but we as eternal souls, as spirit, we are part of Kṛṣṇa, we are part of God and we don’t have any limitation to our existence.

We are eternal. So, the real perfection of life is to get out of this reincarnation cycle, to get out of this material consciousness, and that is done not... It's done in a very simple way, we don’t have to give up the material things that we see them all the energies of Kṛṣṇa. By seeing everything as the energy of the Supreme Lord and utilizing everything for His service, then we become freed from the laws of material nature, which normally bind people and force them to suffer even if they don’t want to suffer. Give them enjoyment spontaneously and rather they keep the living entities in pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They keep the living entities in their original spiritual consciousness. So this is the basis. In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species. All are wandering within this universe. So wandering means not that we are going to the moon, and someone that wandering is there but very rarely. That wandering means when we die, we may take birth in another planet, not necessarily this planet. Depending on our consciousness, we will achieve an appropriate planet. It may be this planet, may be another planet, may be a lower planet or higher planet, may be in any variety of forms, what those forms are of course our science fiction writers have made so many various type of speculation, but actually nobody would be able to say by the ordinary material means available to us, but by the process of yoga if one wants to travel to another planet they can plan… they can travel. There are various methods. Prabhupāda has written a book, Easy Journey To Other Planets. So the various systems how to travel to another planet without using machines are explained there and the ultimate planet to achieve is the planet of God, planet of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-loka, the highest planet in the spiritual world. The description that there are millions of universes, and each universe there are countless living entities, but these material universes comprise only a small portion of the Supreme Lord’s potential energy. The greater portion is in the spiritual world, that’s called the tripāda-vibhūti or the 3/4 potential energy. This material unlimited universes, of which this galaxy, the milky way, everything we see is considered to be one great universe. In terms of the Vedic definitions, one mahā-viśva, you see. And there are countless, millions, ananta-koṭi-brahmāṇḍa, of these universes, but beyond that there is a spiritual world. The spiritual world is never created; it is never destroyed; It is ever existing, and that is our original abode, that is where we originally came from, and until we achieve that complete free spiritual existence, we are never going to be completely satisfied.

So here, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is explaining to Rūpa Gosvāmī about the universe. He also explains the next verse about the soul.

Text 139

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāṁśa kari
tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera ‘svarūpa’ vicāri

Translation: “The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

Jayapatākā Swami: So in this body we are residing in our subtle nature as one spiritual atom, one ten-thousandth part the size of, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair, and although in the subtle spiritual form it is so minute, that power… the power, the potential of that soul, or jīva-ātmā is greater than millions and millions of suns, because every sun has a beginning and a destruction but that particle, that eternal living entity is indestructible. It can be never be cut, dried or destroyed in any way, that is who we are, and as we develop spiritually, although that is a subtle… as it is mentioned here, it's a subtle form of the soul, then also a spiritual form, a spiritual personality, everything develops from that subtle existence. Now that subtle form is what is keeping this body alive. When the spirit leaves the body, the body is dead. Whatever personality is coming through the body is just a perverted reflection of our original spiritual personality. Just like pure white light going through various colored glass, red, blue, yellow, will come out as red light, yellow light, blue light. So our original spiritual personality is not coming through in its pure form in this material life. Depending on our conditioning, through society, through association, through the various types of bodies, it’s coming through in different shades. That personality also comes through in the dog's body, that’s why you see some personality there, but it’s covered, the consciousness is limited. So it’s like coming out black, grey, blue, very dimly.

Then a human being can develop to the complete purity of the consciousness, so that the actual pure consciousness can come… come out, but to do that one has to transcend the material conditioning. That is the process of devotional service.

By practicing, serving Kṛṣṇa in pure devotion, one becomes freed from all the material conditionings, and is actually able to realize the original spiritual personality, the original spiritual form, the original spiritual existence, and relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. Being free, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, being free from all upādhīs, all type of material designations. "I am white, I am black, I am Chinese, I am an American, I am Russian, I am a man, I am a woman, I am poor, I am rich, I am thin, I am fat, I am beautiful, I am ugly, I am an agnostic, I am a this, I am a that." Whether it is a physical designation or mental designation it is all temporary, it can all change. Our real identity is beyond of those temporary, superficial designations. When one is freed from all the superficial conceptions and designations in conditionings, tat-paratvena nirmalam, he becomes completely purified and sees from the spiritual platform the real eternal existence, that... and then in that pure consciousness engages with the senses and the devotional service of the Supreme Lord, who is the master of all the senses, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ, that is a liberation plate… status, that is... then the eternal relationship of devotion, of love for God is established. That is the goal of every religion, to achieve love of Godhead, but the scientific system of how to achieve it is revealed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and it begins from having the proper consciousness that we are not this body.

Pure love for God... when you pray to God simply to maintain your body, is the perversion. It’s not in a proper understanding of what is the position of God, the Supreme Lord, what is our position as parts of God, as spiritual entities. It is filled with body consciousness, with materialistic misconceptions. So the actual science of God realization, the science of developing pure love for God, that has been given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is the known as topmost of all yoga system called the bhakti-yoga. So, actually the world today is suffering only due to lack of this conceptions, lack of this understanding of their real identity.

Today Russians are shooting down Korean airliners, the Muslims are fighting the Christian militia in Beirut, Why? One man is thinking "I am a Christian." the other man is thinking "I am a Muslim." but actually they are all eternal spirit souls, they all are part of God.

Kṛṣṇa doesn’t want them to be fighting each other, "Who is a Christian, who is a Muslim?" Neither do the scriptures say they should do that, but they are being manipulated by politicians. They are bewildered by misconceptions of who they are, so what Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dealing with, is the ideology and the actual true philosophy which is going to change the whole world and can actually create a world-wide peace, a world-wide government. Why is it that Russia, singling out the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, arresting all of our preachers over there? They are not anti-communist, they are not preaching anti-communistic in terms of... they're avoiding political issues. They are only preaching this philosophy, but they are being singled out and persecuted. Billy Graham wasn't. None of the other Christians, or the Muslims, no they were not, but the Hare Kṛṣṇa’s are. Why? Because we are preaching this pure theism which is attracting all the intellectuals all over the world, because it is timeless knowledge revealing the real position.

When everyone realized this and all these differences in the world which are creating wars, which are creating differences, they automatically dissipate. Therefore, we can live together whether we are various races, various ages, various backgrounds. Here we have in our movement we have farmers, from the mid-west we have from the previous lives we have movie stars from Manhattan we have people, we have Fords, we have Walter Reuther's daughter. But, they can all work together. Why? Because they have the proper consciousness, they have transcended all these differences and designations, but the modern institutions, they are trying to preserve these differences, trying to preserve these conditioning, therefore they are preserving war, they are rather promoting it, you see. So whether the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is able to change the consciousness of the people before they have their next nuclear war or the nuclear war which is so impending, or whether after, but the only hope for having a world-wide peaceful situation is by having this type of spiritual consciousness. Otherwise, all the various religious sects are all warring with each other. All the political Ideologist’s are warring with each other, the only way to transcend is that by pure, real spiritual knowledge, by pure God consciousness which is actually what all the essence of every religion is, but people are just missing the point. So, we owe everything to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who has brought from the spiritual world this pure spiritual knowledge, and we owe to Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda for bringing it from India. Even the Indians have not fully understood this. Some of them have. Some haven’t. The majority haven’t. This is not based upon being of a particular caste or particular nationality, it depends upon one’s spiritual development. Indians can easily understand this but they are ignoring it, due to various other…. being misdirected by so many materialistic leaders. So now, we need all over the world these people to take up this spiritual path, you know, whether they remain in their ordinary material situation or whether they become full time missionaries, and they should work for uplifting the consciousness of themselves and of others. That is the highest welfare work.

Saving the seals in the Northern Siberia or whatever, Baltic Straits, it’s a very piecemeal effort, you see. There are so many preachers that are dying. The human species is is practically degrading to lower than animals. So the sentiment that people want to preserve natural order, natural harmony, that sentiment shouldn’t just be misplaced, piecemeal, but is should be directed at the very root. That the real solution of people are God conscious, they are automatically they are going to stop slaughtering seals, gonna stop slaughtering all type of animals, unless it’s absolutely essential to stave off starvation.

Automatically there's going to be ecological balances. Automatically there is going to be wonderful understanding between different people because of proper spiritual realization. So, this is the basic request of Caitanya Mahāprabhu that people should understand the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. At least understand it, and after understanding the next stage is if one can try to practice them, to live them. And if one can go a step further, having gained some spiritual benefit from that, if one can try to give it to others, then that is the most magnanimous thing one could do.

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

Is there any questions?

Devotee: (inaudible)

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, the fact that we are in the material world means that we have not finished off our, we have not crossed over all of the various stages required to achieve self-realization. So some people take to God Consciousness very quickly because in the previous lives they already have a background. Even though this life they have been very materialistic, but when they come in contact with devotees suddenly they feel some attraction because in previous life they have already performed certain yogic practices or sacrifices or devotional services. But the fact that we are here, whether or not a person may be spontaneously attracted due to previous asset or whether one may be just coming for the first time or have been given some special mercy by some devotee preacher, that the fact that we are here means that we have yet to become completely purified. So those impurities are not only coming from this life but they are residual, we may have accumulated a few impurities in this life but there are many from the previous lives. So, every time we are faced with a certain trial, ultimately we have to cross over that.

Prabhupāda gave the example that, say some one has a headache, or has some kind of pain, and you just take a pain killer, you don’t take a medicine, you just take a pain killer to get rid of the pain, that one will have to… that’s only postponing that, that is in one’s karma, that you have to suffer that pain, you see. If you go to take a medicine or do something remedial thing you may be able to avoid it a natural way, that’s one thing, but if you just try to avoid it by taking a pain killer, then later on you will again suffer the same pain, you just postponed it. So, in our spiritual development, we have certain attachments, subtle, gross to our body, to our society, to our material situations until we cross over those attachments, then again and again it will be coming back to the same point. We'll get up to the certain point, and then we will be faced may be different forms but you will feel that "I have been here before." So, it’s a similar situation, maybe different setting, and until you cross over that stage, until you come up to the next higher level of spiritual understanding, if you again fail, then again you come again and again and again. But if you just cross over, then it’s finished.

So, the whole point is that if one is very steady, chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa, following the regulative principles, maintaining good association, no matter what various stages come up, if you just keep plugging at it so to speak, then... at your… at your practice of yoga, then you are gonna cross over those stages. If a person is weak, if they are neglectful, if they are… if they are not very careful about their practices, about their meditation, about their sādhanā, then, this things are… they become very... if you riding on a good… at that period you may be riding on a so to speak, a relatively easy period in your karma, so then even without chanting very much, even without practicing very strictly, somehow you are able to pull on, but then because you are not actually on the spiritual platform, then when your karmas reverse the other way, you may only be covering the 25%, so 75% you are still within the laws of karma.

[break]

...in your spiritual consciousness, then, the effect of these changes will not be very great. It will be 20-25% type of pull, which you can cross over. So that’s why one is recommended to get in a... develop very good spiritual habits, so when you meet some obstacles, you will cross over it. You build up spiritual momentum, chanting every day, practicing every day, then when some obstacles come up, taking maybe a little extra help from the spiritual master or from a Godbrothers, or the God sisters whatever the case may be, then you can cross over those obstacles. The weaker you are, then when the trial comes up, the more difficult it would be to cross over, but if you take the proper help there is nothing that can stop your spiritual progress. Its described that just as the flow of the Ganges river is going through the ocean, you see, it just … it just, whether the root may be.. this or that, somehow or other it finds its way to the ocean. So in the same way our flow of devotion, if the desire is there, I want to reach Kṛṣṇa, I want to go back to Godhead, I want to achieve my original pure consciousness, that I want to understand the Absolute Truth, one will be led to that destination, one would be able to overcome the obstacles. But our trouble is... in the mind, especially that we started to lose focus on, and then when you lose focus then that flow is interrupted. So there, to keep the proper aim, to keep the proper destination always in focus, therefore we have to keep our spiritual practices very strong. Therefore we avoid bad habits, and we regularly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jayapatākā Swami: Yes, Mahārāja

Question: What was the state of the living entity before it entered into this material world

Jayapatākā Swami: Pure, free of material conditions.

Question: Specifically, what was the soul doing before it came to this material world?

Jayapatākā Swami: Sac-cid-ānanda. It was engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service

Question: Where?

Jayapatākā Swami: With Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda was very clear about it, originally we were with Kṛṣṇa, but sometimes we may fall down in the material world or achieve impersonal liberation, again fall down, achieve impersonal liberation, again fall down, then we can’t remember even when we were back with Kṛṣṇa, but originally everyone has come from Kṛṣṇa. There is nothing that hasn’t come originally come from Kṛṣṇa, you see.

Comment: I'm asking the question because somebody pointed out to me a quote in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that says nobody ever falls from the... falls down from Vaikuṇṭha.

Jayapatākā Swami: Once you go back, then you don’t fall down again, but Jaya, Vijaya. We have the minute independence to fall down. Prabhupāda wanted to establish that our original relation is with Kṛṣṇa. He is the origin; we are coming from Kṛṣṇa, in various forms, in various ways, and we have the minute independence, we can misuse that and fall down in the material, and when we re-establish our pure consciousness, we realize our original relationship with Kṛṣṇa.

Question: Yes Mahārāja, are the symptoms of the Kali-yuga, prevalent throughout the entire cosmic manifestation or at certain (inaudible)….?

Jayapatākā Swami: According to the… they are prevalent but they have much less effect on the higher planets. Just like in America, say we are going through depression, everyone is in depression, from the rich to the poor. But the effect on the poor is more than on the rich, you know, where the Fords they lost 10% of a stock or 50%, but because they had a million to begin with, so its not that big affecting. They're still are driving their you know, Cadillacs and flying in their Learjet’s or whatever. They just have economized a little bit. So in the higher planets, it’s also Kali-yuga but the effect is much less, and what effect we are experiencing in the lower planets is much worse.

(Audio Break)

Any other questions? Do you have any question?

Question: You were saying that because of the society making such a system that creates these separate designations... (inaudible) ...if everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be out of that bodily concept, and I was thinking, you know, within ISKCON or within the temple sometimes may disagree... (inaudible) ...communication and I was wondering is that... to what is that due? Is that based on being in the bodily concept, and what can we do about that obstacle that comes up?

Jayapatākā Swami: The point is that there are various ideas coming in everyone’s mind. A neophyte devotee is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, he may get a idea. It doesn’t necessarily means that he has been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa for, you see... for a short while, that those ideas are all cent percent pure, so some ideas are put in our mind by māyā, you see, and some ideas are put in our mind by Kṛṣṇa. So, when we get some materialistic idea, then also there is the alternative of a Kṛṣṇa conscious idea. So at that time it is up to us to decide to do the Kṛṣṇa conscious idea or to follow the materialistic idea. So Prabhupāda said those who are very attracted… attached to the lotus feet of the Kṛṣṇa, they choose to do the thing which will please Kṛṣṇa. And when we are not so attached we may choose to do the more materialistic alternative, and that creates problems and dissension. So when everyone is trying to carry out the order of the spiritual master, then there is a harmony, and when there is two opinions about what is the spiritual master’s order, then that create a schism, whether minor or major. So that’s why we have to have a continuously classes and discussions, although just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and doing our devotional service is in itself enough, we don’t ultimately need so much theoretical knowledge to achieve God consciousness. But because in the application we get confused or mislead, or there would be some differences, therefore we continually have to be discussing the basic concepts of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that there is no confusion about what is actually the desire of Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. What are their orders, what are their instructions, then there can be a unity.

Question: (inaudible) after leaving the body the soul takes a new body.

Jayapatākā Swami: Yes.

Devotee: In between death, there is a short period, how long is that period? What happens in that period?

Jayapatākā Swami: Prabhupāda describes to us... I mean the Bhagavad-Gītā explains to us that there are two bodies. There is a gross body, physical body, and there is a subtle body.

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(Bg. 7.4)

So the gross body is the physical body, and the subtle body is our mental body. So when we… the gross body dies then we go to the next birth in our subtle body. So when we are not liberated from our desires and our many misconceptions, and those mental, subtle attitudes go with us. So, practically we take birth. Almost. rebirth almost instantaneously.

Question: What about suffering from the hellish planets. Then in the hellish planets, there's a different calculation of time, (inaudible) have to go through that extra...

Jayapatākā Swami: May only be a matter of seconds, but it may feel to you like hundreds of years.

Question: Oh, (inaudible)

Jayapatākā Swami: If you are born in a lower planet, it is different from being punished in a hellish planet. The hellish punishments are in a subtle platform. So that happens... although it seems like a long time, but it’s a type of conditioning preparing you for a lower body. Like say that one’s karma is to take birth as a pig, if a human being right with that mentality takes birth as a pig he couldn’t handle it. So that... put him some type of hellish existence where though in a subtle plane in which although in a subtle plane they would be feeding various type of horrible things, feeding stools every day, and then one day when he is forced to eat stool, and the person starts to think "That stool is better than this stool." Starts to see a difference, "This stool is better than that stool." Then they put them in the pig body. (laughter) When they got over to the point completely, when they start differentiating, then they are ready to take that type of body, otherwise the subconscious couldn’t relate. There has to be a little conditioning.

Devotee: Yeah.

Question: You were saying that America is like a higher planet... (inaudible)

Jayapatākā Swami: Well they have a higher national karma at this point of time. Just like to be born in England a couple of hundred years or hundred years ago, it was the top of the world. The sun never set on the English empire, but now you are born in England, doesn’t have the same type of situation. So now, before it was a Roman Empire, now it happens to be America. So the national karma here. I believe didn’t Prabhupāda explain that because the forefathers were very God conscious, so now all the people they are kind of reaping the benefits of that, but now again they are becoming materialistic. So then, they will probably lose all that good karma. Things will become more and more degraded.

So there is individual karma, there is a family karma. Like if the wife is very pious, she is doing different sacrifices, that can affect, even that can also affect the total family. That may help the husband in his business. In India they… In India always the rich people encourage their wife to stay in the temple the whole day and do worship. He goes out and does the business. (Laughter) In the Marwaris, you always find that, right? It’s materialistic, but that’s… So there is a karma whether you build up a family unit, it’s karma if you built up in a race in a state. It’s a karma you can built up a nation. And this whole planet has a karma also.

Question: Is the living entity brought before Yamarāja in certain instances?

Jayapatākā Swami: Yes. At the time when we are dying, the whole life is taken before us, just kind of like a video reveal, news cast. You can see just in a flash, you can see the activities of our whole life. Just as we are dying, just as we are at that stage.

Comment: Well, then we don't know right or wrong, either.

Jayapatākā Swami: At that time, some, there is some conscience is there at that point.

Question: But the Yamadūtas don’t (inaudible)... everywhere and actually bring in front of Yamarāja?

Jayapatākā Swami: Oh, they might, not fully. What we see is that they do take the people before Yamarāja, and they are decided out, but whether they are decided on or… where they are going is decided on. The exact formula. We have seen some people... it mentions in the Bhāgavatam. Whether every person I don’t know all these details. But the person knows what he is suffering. It’s not like… it’s not like it's made aware to him, but not necessarily you know, in a very primitive way. I mean it’s revealed automatically. You see, the whole life’s activities are flashed before then they... at that moment, then they can understand that... That intelligence is given, they can understand what they did wrong and what they did right.

Question: So we know that (inaudible) all the living entities that fall into the material world, so will there be a time when all the living entities will be liberated to the spiritual world?

Jayapatākā Swami: Lord Caitanya indicated that it won’t happen. Vāsudeva Datta, he wanted to deliver the whole universe and take all the karma on Himself. At that time Lord Caitanya said “Even if I deliver the whole universe, there is so many other living entities in a subtle, dormant state, they will come and fill it up. Even if you empty out one universe, it will fill up again. There is so many living entities that are… cannot, there is no… there are in the waiting list to get in the material world, they're in a dormant state, you see. The fact that you are in the material world, that gives you an opportunity to get back to the spiritual world. But there are many that are still on the waiting list. Like waiting to get into the hospital, right? Two year waiting list. So the material world is a part of the.. part of the… Kṛṣṇa is ever expanding, so there also a... dormant living entities, there is always scope for more. But nonetheless, whoever is here now, they're gonna remain here indefinitely, perpetually, until they are liberated so, the devotee always wants to liberate these fallen souls. But there will always be some that don’t want to go back.

Even this whole universe was liberated by Lord Caitanya but then more will come and fill it up, so it's said, you can go on preaching perpetually. When the universe is manifested. It’s only manifested half-time, half-time it is dormant, much less than that, much less than half-time, because Kṛṣṇa doesn’t always manifest the material world. Occasionally He manifests the material world. And when the material world is manifested, then during that period 50% is in the dormant state during the night of Brahmā, and 50% is active during the day of Brahmā, so the total amount of time that the material world is actually active is a very... is a small fraction. Kṛṣṇa if He sometimes wants to have a fight with somebody, He may come down in the material world and fight with demons.

Question: (inaudible) This material world is manifested in one day of Brahmā, and the living entities are merged (inaudible)

Jayapatākā Swami: Yeah they all go. They all return into the body of the… of the, that period of time… Maha-Viṣṇu or the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu?

Comment: It comes from the pores.

Jayapatākā Swami: It comes from the pores at the beginning of the creation and in the end of the creat... they come back in the pores of Mahā-Viṣṇu during the universal shut down, at the end of the day of Brahmā, I have to just check the śāstra but I believe into the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. They go in the stem of the lotus of Brahmā, and remain there until the recreation or into the body of Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu.

Question: That stage would be a partial, or a complete... (inaudible)

Jayapatākā Swami: The universe itself, the shell is there, but internally everything is destroyed, except for Brahmaloka. When Brahmā wakes up he recreates the universe again, the internal planets. And the living entities are taken from their dormant state and put back in. So they are still stuck in the same universe. They don’t get out of the universe during the total creation, during the total life of Brahmā they're within the surrounding universe.

Comment: You were about to explain how consciousness is polluted by material designations. This is the source of conflict in this world and so I was wondering if a body, in this country that our movement is being attacked by different people who see us, not as a pure spiritual movement... cause we also explain that our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual movement. It's not another material movement, but sometimes Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is attacked because people are seeing us as another material opponent. So I was wondering if Lord Caitanya taught some specific secret how to pacify such people. I've actually (inaudible) was being very viciously attacked in this period of time.

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, if you study His life, He was very viciously attacked all through His life. When He had to be, He was very strong, at the same time He was very humble, and He also always kept His character completely pure. The problem that so many criticisms that people have are… have come about due to the misbehavior of certain people… devotees. And most of the criticism of course are just completely concocted, just speculations, just concocted… so, by getting associations with devotees and by acting properly like Lord Caitanya gave a good example that for a preacher it is like a white sheet, if there is black spot on it, everyone will see it. Like if you have a white dhoti, you drop a little blue ink on it, everyone is going to say, “Oh, he is wearing a dhoti with a block... a blot with a blue ink on it, right? But if it falls on you blue shirt, no one is going to notice it very much. So, for the materialistic, there are so many faults, but because it is a black spot on a black sheet nobody notices it. But when you are preaching everyone is looking "What's your defect? Where's your fault?" So a preacher has to be specially pure in his character is it a question of preaching?

There are gonna be always certain envious people but then we have to see that the innocent people don’t only hear the side of the envious people. Take the innocent person like a judge, a devotee at time has an idea that preaching was materialistic. They stay in Vṛndāvana and worship Kṛṣṇa and don’t bother for it. So neither did they clarify for the Christian missionaries their misconceptions, and the innocent people got mislead. So the responsibilities on the devotee is to preach. People are criticizing if the devotee fades away, that’s not going to solve the situation. Then we have to come up and meet the challenge. We have to become more vocal; we have to be more systematic about how we are exposing the innocent people to our philosophy.

There will be always some biased, envious people, atheistic, who no matter what you say, they wouldn't even listen. But there are many innocent people who have not yet come… they are not by nature biased against ISKCON, against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Maybe they have been biased by the propaganda, but they can also be brought back the other way. So that will happen by distributing literature in the proper way and by exposing them to a Kṛṣṇa conscious association, you know. Just like there was some envious person in the Denver airport and he would start screaming at girl, “You people are cheaters, You are rascals, you are cheating the people, you are all false.”

It happened that the temple president was there, “Why you are picking on this young lady? I happen to be the leader here, I am the Temple President of our local branch. So, if you want to say something, say it to me. Why you are picking on this young lady?"

He said, “So, you're the rascal! All the things you are doing is all false”

"So you are saying it is false. So what is real? You tell me what’s real then."

So he pulled out of his pocket a bliss bar said "This is real!" (laughter) The raisins, cashews, bite into it you can taste it, it is real. (laughter) What’s all this religion garbage? It is all false, this is the real thing, food." (laughter)

"You like this… You believe that is real."

"Yes."

"Tastes good."

"Tastes great! Wonderful!" (laughter)

Then he couldn't resist. He said, "You know who makes those?" (Everyone laughs)

"It says here, Barsana Farms."

"That’s us." (laughter)

Then the person, you know, says, "You people make this?"

"Yes, natural food, we believe in natural living. You don't even know what we stand for! Natural fruit, natural living, pure, natural life style, everything natural. You see. Spiritual life, all natural." Whatever, he preached to him then, and then he said,

“Well then you people can’t be all bad. Must be alright" He is attached to his Bliss Bar. Wasn't going to give that up. (Laughter)

So, we have our weapons, we have to use them, prasādam, books. The devotees should treat the other people nice, shouldn’t get puffed up, "I am a devotee. They are Demons." you see, that way you won’t be able to change their heart. They may be acting like demons or demon, that we'll see, but the devotee takes a attitude that whatever may be I will try to, if they are demons I will avoid them, you see. But the devotee avoids... if he is going to make a show of force, then you have to have the ability like Lord Caitanya. He came with 200,000 people to Chand Kazi, you see. Lord Caitanya didn’t go with didn’t come up with other. He didn’t go to the Hussain Shah and make any kind of representations, you see. Anyway He went in Navadvīpa to the Chand Kazi, He can go anywhere… but he had the full control of the situation. But we have to be realistic. Prabhupāda said, utility is the principle. You have to see, If you are going to make some kind of a show, of course you have to have the backing.

In Māyāpur we made a show of course. The communists said "We are going to take your temple, and we are going to turn it into a… an animal hospital." then I called all the Hindu people from all over there, and I had 400 leaders, we made a mass movement. We marched with 20,000 people right through the village, right by the communist leader’s house. And after that he came and said, “I never said that”

Devotee: Jaya!

Jayapatākā Swami: You have to know exactly, you know, when you have what… you know, if you try to go with a shaved head upto the criminal and say, you know, “Listen, you people are demons, you have to….” No, then you just get sent to Siberia. Prabhupāda said keep your hair, don’t shave your head, be… to the Russian where disciples he had. Every place is different, you have to see, but the basic when you are preaching, once we have the (inaudible)

"We are very, humble we knew you didn’t say that. You should help us."

"Yes I will help you. What do you want?"

"Give us some land, want to build a city."

"Oh yes I will do that."

Lord Caitanya asked the devotees to follow the footsteps of Lord Caitanya in preaching. As able you see. According to the time, place and circumstances, and in dealings one has to able to deal in a humble way, offering respects to others, not expecting respect for oneself, you see. This people of America, this is the 20th century but culturally this people are still in the... they are still, do you where they are at, majority of people are still in the inquisition days. They have very little tolerance about anything except exactly what they are relating with. It’s practically like that, but the 20th century is trying to expose them that well they are supposed to be open-minded and everything. That’s why in actually the big cities, normally like in New York, you... where it's very tolerant to various type of cultures. This is a very big acceptance of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. But you have some very conservative places, Orange County or so where the rednecks, that they call them, the tendency is to be very intolerant. So accordingly we have to try to win them over, you see.

Even in India Prabhupāda said to make a temple in Hyderabad, he said make a South Indian Deity. Worship Kṛṣṇa in a South Indian form that the people can relate to. It’s not a stereotyped thing. At the same time we want to have exposure that people know about this, but when we try to win them over then we may also, Prabhupāda said to distribute books, you can wear kar… you see… you know, kar… civilian dress… whatever you want to call it. You can wear ordinary dress for preaching of for distributing books, you see. Otherwise for just propagating the harināma, then we wear dhotis, our saris, but if for preaching if it is necessary you can also wear ordinary whatever this national dress maybe.

There are many places, in France, they were completely wanted to close our movement down. There the socialists, communists, psychologists became very much against us. They organized massive prasādam distribution, and they organized the certain, nothing… we wanted just have Kṛṣṇa do it for us or something. It doesn’t happen like that; we have to go out and serve Kṛṣṇa. People have misconceptions. We have to… we have to work to correct it; Kṛṣṇa is behind us, He will help us. It’s not that "Oh, we are devotees, we have nothing to fear, Kṛṣṇa is going to do everything." It’s not that type of… we are not just the four-year old cowherd boys with Kṛṣṇa, that are depending on Kṛṣṇa, because anyway they are helpless." But we are going out because, this is the desire of Kṛṣṇa and we go out and meet them.

In France, they met the challenge and in due course the total there was a very anti-current and the whole thing turned around and went in our favor. So everything goes in waves. Sometimes an opposition wave is there. It may also turn around. So when there is opposition, that time we learn to build up our… our offensive preaching, our defensive position, we learn to build up, we become very strong, when we have some opposition and then when the current changes, then if you… then it's not the time to sit back, then the time to use the same momentum, and then you can go forward so much easier. When you are swimming against the tide you have to struggle just to maintain your own level, but when the tide changes then you can go so much faster. In the Calcutta the tide comes, when we take your boat against the tide, you have to... you are lucky if you can just go forward, but if you keep on going, and then finally when the current changes then you go twice as fast.

There was so much opposition in Detroit to our movement there, but now that they have opened up the nice cultural centre and they had so much press, the Senate of the state has given us a resolution commemorating the opening. So we are not attached to just to infamy or to fame in that sense. Praise or criticism. We have our business to go about, and we are very systematically are to engage in that. And nothing material is permanent, so even the opposition is not permanent. That's also temporary. That will also pass. By very nature its material opposition, but if we take the opportunity during this time, to not allow them to push us back much but to counter that opposition, then we become stronger and then when the current changes, we will be able to actually make big progress. If we allow ourselves to be pushed back, then potentially by the time we regather ourselves then, when the current changes we will be behind, you see... potentially could be like that. Prabhupāda said initially people are going to criticize us, they are going to laugh at us. They are going to say, “It's a joke”, and then when they see that we're serious, we are still there, they are going to oppose us, then when they actually understand what we stand for, then they are going to support us, you see.

So in America they make jokes "The Hare Kṛṣṇas." Even yesterday read in an in flight magazine, someone pointed out to us, they said that if you wanna get… make a… standing in a line, you want to make it shorter, wear a saffron robe and chant some mantras ecstatically beating on garbage can lids, then everyone will leave and line and some kind of thing. People they are joking still, you see… they don’t take it very seriously. There are some people on that level, and there are some people they take us so seriously, like the Russian government, like certain demons here, that they are trying their level best to finish this movement, you see, and they are already people that are very favourable, they have understood. Those are more normally the intellectuals, the religious, the theological experts, they can see that this is a genuine spiritual movement.

So you have different... according to ones intelligence, you can see the different stages already there. We've already, practically won over the intelligentsia, but then you have as you go down, then you have administration, We haven’t convinced the administration, we haven’t convinced the business community, we haven’t convinced say… certain levels of people, some we have, so we have to work. They show responses, “Oh, this is funny." The next response is "Oh! They are serious." "Oh this is endangering, they want to take my son or daughter or they are going to change uh... there is going to be a new status in the society, what does it mean?"

Even in India there is sometimes response, people get afraid. "If everybody become Hare Kṛṣṇa then where are the slaughter houses going to go, who is going to buy cigarettes, what happens to tea and coffee, so on and so forth, you see? The whole world economy!" I mean there are demons who think like that. "If people actually become Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, then they are going to stop eating meat, then my meat factory is going to close. So I should finance this anti-cult group or some other group to stop these Hare Kṛṣṇa because if they go on spreading then in the long run it is going to be bad for my business." There are people like that. Śrīla Prabhupāda said that "If they had known what I was going to bring to American when I came they would have killed me." you see.

We have to go with our devotional service. Nothing is going to stop the preaching of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This demons, they are not going to be able to stop it. But then when we have some opposition we have to be more careful, that we are behaving properly, that we are presenting the philosophy properly, we have to consider that according to this time, place and circumstance, what is the best method of presenting the co…. Something may be said in the Vedas, we don’t have to stress certain things if its not appropriate for this time, although in the absolute level, it may be alright but for this particular time, place, is not appropriate. So we don’t stress it.

In some of the airports the devotees were dealing with the people very harshly, trying to make quotas of book distribution, as a result some people they rejected that, they responded in a inimical way. So now, I think in most of the places I think they've changed the way of dealing with the people. And they way they were dealing wasn’t the way that Prabhupāda or the Vedas stated, but they became over enthusiastic, so like that we have to see according to, when we are preaching, what’s the reaction to that. Then we don’t change our goals and objective and teachings, but we may slightly adjust methods according to the response we are getting, but we have to go on. If we reduce on one side, we'll increase on another. The overall effect will be the same.