19861107 Evening Lecture

The following is a class given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami Mahārāja on November 7th 1986 in ISKCON Soho Temple, London. The class begins with the reading from Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya-līlā 4.87–98.

 

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.87 

haridāse kahe prabhu,—“śuna, haridāsa 
parera dravya iṅho cāhena karite vināśa

Translation: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then said to Haridāsa Ṭhākura, “My dear Haridāsa, please hear Me. This gentleman wants to destroy another’s property.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.88

parera sthāpya dravya keha nā khāya, vilāya 
niṣedhiha iṅhāre,—yena nā kare anyāya”

Translation: “One who is entrusted with another’s property does not distribute it or use it for his own purposes. Therefore, tell him not to do such an unlawful thing.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.89

haridāsa kahe,—“mithyā abhimāna kari 
tomāra gambhīra hṛdaya bujhite nā pāri

Translation: Haridāsa Ṭhākura replied, “We are falsely proud of our capabilities. Actually we cannot understand Your deep intentions.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.90

kon kon kārya tumi kara kon dvāre 
tumi nā jānāile keha jānite nā pāre

Translation: “Unless You inform us, we cannot understand what Your purpose is or what You want to do through whom.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.91

etādṛśa tumi iṅhāre kariyācha aṅgīkāra 
eta saubhāgya ihāṅ nā haya kāhāra”

Translation: “My dear Sir, since You, a great personality, have accepted Sanātana Gosvāmī, he is greatly fortunate; no one can be as fortunate as he.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.92

tabe mahāprabhu kari’ duṅhāre āliṅgana 
‘madhyāhna’ karite uṭhi’ karilā gamana

Translation: Thus Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu embraced both Haridāsa Ṭhākura and Sanātana Gosvāmī and then got up and left to perform His noon duties.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.93

sanātane kahe haridāsa kari’ āliṅgana 
“tomāra bhāgyera sīmā nā yāya kathana

Translation: “My dear Sanātana,” Haridāsa Ṭhākura said, embracing him, “no one can find the limits of your good fortune.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.94

tomāra deha kahena prabhu ‘mora nija-dhana’ 
tomā-sama bhāgyavān nāhi kona jana

Translation: “Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has accepted your body as His own property. Therefore no one can equal you in good fortune.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.95

nija-dehe ye kārya nā pārena karite 
se kārya karāibe tomā, seha mathurāte

Translation: “What Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu cannot do with His personal body He wants to do through you, and He wants to do it in Mathurā.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.96

ye karāite cāhe īśvara, sei siddha haya 
tomāra saubhāgya ei kahiluṅ niścaya

Translation: “Whatever the Supreme Personality of Godhead wants us to do will successfully be accomplished. This is your great fortune. That is my mature opinion.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.97

bhakti-siddhānta, śāstra-ācāra-nirṇaya 
tomā-dvāre karāibena, bujhiluṅ āśaya

Translation: “I can understand from the words of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu that He wants you to write books about the conclusive decision of devotional service and about the regulative principles ascertained from the revealed scriptures.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.98

āmāra ei deha prabhura kārye nā lāgila 
bhārata-bhūmite janmi’ ei deha vyartha haila”

Translation: “My body could not be used in the service of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore although it took birth in the land of India, this body has been useless.”

Purport: For a further explanation of the importance of Bhārata-bhūmi, one may refer to the Ādi-līlā 9.41 and also Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.19.19–27. The special feature of a birth in India is that a person born in India becomes automatically God conscious. In every part of India, and especially in the holy places of pilgrimage, even an ordinary uneducated man is inclined toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and as soon as he sees a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he offers obeisances. India has many sacred rivers, such as the Ganges, Yamunā, Narmadā, Kāverī and Kṛṣṇā, and simply by bathing in these rivers people are liberated and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says:

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra 
janma sārthaka kari’ kara para-upakāra

One who has taken birth in the land of Bhārata-bhūmi, India, should take full advantage of his birth.  He should become completely well versed in the knowledge of the Vedas and spiritual culture and should distribute the experience of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. People all over the world are madly engaging in sense gratification and in this way spoiling their human lives, with the risk that in the next life they may become animals or less. Human society should be saved from such a risky civilization and the danger of animalism by awakening to God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has been started for this purpose. Therefore unbiased men of the highest echelon should study the principles of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and fully cooperate with this movement to save human society.

* * *

Jayapatākā Swami: So Sanātana Gosvāmī was thinking about taking his life, because he had all type of sores on his body and Lord Caitanya was still embracing him, getting the pus from the boils or eczema. And so he thought, “This is so offensive, this is so bad that my pollution from my body is going on Lord Caitanya, therefore I should take my life.”

But then, Lord Caitanya, He said that, “Because you’re a devotee, your body is pure, so I don’t take anything to be a contamination. In any case, you have already given your body to Kṛṣṇa, so you cannot take it. You cannot take it or trade it or do anything.” This then gives that example, if someone gives you something, you don’t have the right to give it away.

Since a devotee surrenders his body to the service of Kṛṣṇa, and then Kṛṣṇa in effect returns the body back to the devotee to use it in His service, happens automatically. You don’t see the body change places. But in effect, when we offer our body to Kṛṣṇa, that’s what happens. So then we have to take care of the body because it’s Kṛṣṇa’s property. We can’t see it destroyed or harmed. You have to keep it healthy. At the same time, neither can we... We don’t have the right also to destroy the body in any way ourselves. We should simply use it in Kṛṣṇa’s service because it’s His body. So that’s the first part.

So Haridāsa Ṭhākura is glorifying Sanātana Gosvāmī that you got the mercy of the Lord because He has accepted your body as His own property. And moreover, He is going to give you a very important service of writing books in Vṛndāvana about the culture of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So then he is lamenting that, “I haven’t been able to do any kind of service. So therefore, what is the use of my living? My life has been a waste.” Of course, this is all humility. Because Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a great preacher. He would be spreading the glories of the holy name everywhere, wherever he went. Although, he was such a great chanter of Hare Kṛṣṇa, that when anyone would see him, they would chant. If he is walking down the street, people would see him. Even the little children, somehow or other, they would chant. Even the people of other religions, they would also chant. Sometimes they would make fun and chant, “Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa!”, they make mimic.

And so then to make them feel more excited to chant, he would become overtly very angry, like, “Why are you making…”, although inside he is feeling very happy, because they are chanting.

So then they would chant more, oh, then the little kids, “Oh! he is getting angry. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare!”

Then he make, you know, bigger face and get them to chant more. This way he was feeling very happy that he is getting them to chant. And Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was such a great devotee that, wherever he went, he would inspire people. Because of his purity, he would establish the real standard of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

One day, Lord… rather Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was traveling and there was one snake charmer. In India, even today they still have snake charmers. In fact, a little off the point, but just recently, about a few months ago India, there was a snake charmer and he was playing his flute with a snake. But he got distracted and the snake bit him in the arm, cobra. So normally you have about two, three minutes to live once you get bit by a cobra. You can get about two Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantras. (laughter) And well, being an experienced snake charmer, he knew that he was in big trouble. So he took a razor blade, he just cut his arm, slashed it very heavily, where it was bit, then the poisoning effect… he fell unconscious. But he cut… so much blood was pouring out of his arms. He cut all the veins and everything that when they found him, he only had about two liters of blood left. And so they took him to hospital and somehow they were able to save him. But because he bled so profusely, almost all of the poison left the body and he was able to survive. They still have snake charmers, even today. And this was in a newspaper. So it’s one of the professions.

So at that time, 500 years ago, there was a snake charmer, but he was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So he was chanting a mantra about Kāliya and Kṛṣṇa. You know that we have a pastime of Kāliya Kṛṣṇa? A pastime where Kṛṣṇa defeats a really big snake. And when Haridāsa Ṭhākura heard that person singing the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, he became very ecstatic because this snake charmer was a devotee. When he heard chanting of Kṛṣṇa’s glories, Haridāsa Ṭhākura started to dance in ecstasy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, being absorbed in the mercy of Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes. But next to the snake charmer, a few yards away, there was an astrologer brāhmaṇa. They’re also seen on the roadside in India. They have the chart of a hand. Come and look at your hand, your lifeline and this line and all that. So people come. He was there doing charts and so on. So he was an astrologer, sitting there, paṇḍita, brāhmaṇa, priestly person. And he is watching Haridāsa Ṭhākura dance. And he sees all the villagers come and start offering their obeisances to Haridāsa Ṭhākura, that he is such a great devotee, he is dancing. Means it’s just like so beautiful to see him dance in love of Kṛṣṇa that the villagers some just spontaneously felt inspired to offer respect and bow down to him. So then the brāhmaṇa thought, “Here I am a brāhmaṇa, here is this… some guy walking up and dancing, and everyone is paying respect. I am a priest. I know the whole astrology and everything. And people should be bowing to me, but nobody bows to me like that.” So then he thought, “Well, I am gonna go and dance like him and then they all bow to me.”

So he started imitating. But he’s, you know, just, you know, dancing when it’s all, it’s not natural. He’s just artificially putting it on but Haridāsa Ṭhākura was an ecstasy. You know, for an outsider, I mean, maybe it’s hard to recognize, but devotee can recognize immediately when another devotee is dancing in ecstasy. Because something very natural. Even though it may not be like a ballet or something, but it has… it’s just something natural. I mean, you know, it’s spontaneous. It’s not stiff or anything. It’s just very ecstatic. So the snake charmer, he could see that, “This… what is this guy doing?” You know, dancing and trying to imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He said, “This, you know, this is totally bogus.”

So Haridāsa Ṭhākura was dancing so much and chanting, that he got stunned and fainted. So then the brāhmaṇa imitated and he hops on the ground, imitates. But this snake charmer, he says, he told the villagers, “Look at this brāhmaṇa. He’s a complete imposter. He’s totally false.”, he said. And he goes and he gives a good kick to the brāhmaṇa.

“OWWW!” (brāhmaṇa cries out)

So then everyone can see what ecstasy he’s in. As soon as you give him a little tap, he starts howling. So then all the villagers got so angry. “Look, he tried to cheat you. And by doing this, he’s offended the great devotee.” So all the villagers started chasing the brāhmaṇa with a stick. He had to run for his skin because of his offenses.

So Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he would catalyze indirectly many things which would induce the people to become more Kṛṣṇa conscious and purify people from their offenses.

So, I mean, this is countless pastimes of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, how we delivered a big society girl from king’s court and so many different pastimes. So Sanātana Gosvāmī is starting to glorify. After hearing all these praises of Sanātana, he is now describing the glories of Haridāsa Ṭhākura:

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.99

sanātana kahe,—"tomā-sama kebā āche āna
mahāprabhura gaṇe tumi—mahā-bhāgyavān!

Translation: Sanātana Gosvāmī replied, “O Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who is equal to you? You are one of the associates of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore you are the most fortunate.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.100

avatāra-kārya prabhura—nāma-pracāre 
sei nija-kārya prabhu karena tomāra dvāre

Translation: “The mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, for which He has descended as an incarnation, is to spread the importance of chanting the holy name of the Lord. Now instead of personally doing so, He is spreading it through you.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.101

pratyaha kara tina-lakṣa nāma-saṅkīrtana 
sabāra āge kara nāmera mahimā kathana

Translation: “My dear sir, you are chanting the holy name 300,000 times daily and informing everyone of the importance of such chanting.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.102

āpane ācare keha, nā kare pracāra
pracāra karena keha, nā karena ācāra

Translation: “Some behave very well but do not preach the cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whereas others preach but do not behave properly.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.103

‘ācāra’, ‘pracāra’,—nāmera karaha ‘dui’ kārya 
tumi—sarva-guru, tumi jagatera ārya

Translation: “You simultaneously perform both duties in relation to the holy name by your personal behavior and by your preaching. Therefore you are the spiritual master of the entire world, for you are the most advanced devotee in the world.”

Purport (by Śrīla Prabhupāda): Sanātana Gosvāmī clearly defines herein the bona fide spiritual master of the world. The qualifications expressed in this connection are that one must act according to the scriptural injunctions and at the same time preach. One who does so is a bona fide spiritual master. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was the ideal spiritual master because he regularly chanted on his beads a prescribed number of times. Indeed, he was chanting the holy name of the Lord 300,000 times a day. Similarly, the members of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement chant a minimum of sixteen rounds a day, which can be done without difficulty, and at the same time they must preach the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu according to the gospel of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. One who does so is quite fit to become a spiritual master for the entire world.

Jayapatākā Swami: So, Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was chanting 300,000 times a day, which means 10 million Hare Kṛṣṇa mantras in a month, one crore. So if you chant 16 rounds a day, that means that you chant 10 million times Hare Kṛṣṇa in a year.

It’s a lot of Hare Kṛṣṇas, heads up. 10 million Hare Kṛṣṇas in a year, if you chant 16 rounds of hare Kṛṣṇa per day. There’s 25,000, it’s one-twelfth of 300,000. So he chants 10 million in a month, he chants twelve times more per day. So twelve months we chant 10 million. So he does that. Even when people are beginning, if they chant even one round in a day, 108 times hare Kṛṣṇa day, it starts to add up and this builds up one’s spiritual strength. It is the principle that one should chant a fixed number of Hare Kṛṣṇas every day. It’s one of the sādhanās or practices of devotional service. So Prabhupāda guaranteed, well if you chant 16 rounds and follow the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you can go back to Kṛṣṇa and you can also take people with you.

Eventually you can also be a spiritual master and deliver people by preaching the message of the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So we recommend that people chant, even if they are not able to immediately chant 16 rounds in a day. We recommend they chant some number of Hare Kṛṣṇa every day as a regular practice. In India, we have a Nāmahaṭṭa. Not only in India but all over the world we have Nāmahaṭṭa program. And some of the members who are practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their home, they’re not immediately able to chant 16 rounds. So, we recommend we’ll start chanting four and eight gradually build up to 16, and by doing so, they can experience a profound change in their life. That actually, their life becomes spiritualized in so many ways, and eventually they get more and more strength to chant 16 rounds. This principle of chanting, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was the best example. Even in his old age, he would always chant his fixed number of rounds.

Here also, Prabhupāda states (quoting Purport):

“Similarly, the members of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement chant a minimum of sixteen rounds a day, which can be done without difficulty, and at the same time they must preach the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu according to the gospel of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. One who does so is quite fit to become a spiritual master for the entire world.”

So Śrīla Prabhupāda is given his sanction that if someone chants regularly 16 rounds a day, and preaches from the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, then they can… they’re qualified, or they’re quite fit to become a spiritual master for the entire world. A spiritual master means, a spiritual master for the world. Because spiritual master is not material. So if someone’s a spiritual master, then it’s not a material service. It’s a service for giving people spiritual guidance. So repeatedly, Prabhupāda wants his devotees to preach all over the world. But that doesn’t mean that every devotee has to literally preach all over the world. They may, or they may also preach in one particular area, taking it as the guru-datta-deśa, or land given by the spiritual master, and concentrate preaching there. But the goal is that eventually the whole world should be given this message of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That was his desire. And everyone should be given the opportunity to chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Of course, it’s up to the individual’s choice if you’ll do it or not, but at least from our side, we should offer them the opportunity.

Another important point here is that it’s mentioned some people, they act very nicely, but they don’t preach. Sometimes there might be someone, they bathe regularly, very clean cloth, very good knowledge, like a pure priest or something. They don’t preach. They’re good in their habits, very strict, but they don’t have any… they don’t preach, they don’t give it to others. They just themselves benefit from their own practices. On the other side, sometimes there’s people who are very expert at convincing large groups of people to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But in their personal behavior, they might be a little angry, or they might have some sort of defects. They’re not completely good in their behavior. They’re a little rough at the edges, so to speak. So we see these two type of examples.

But in the case of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was not only perfect in his behavior, but he is also a very dynamic feature of the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is our goal, that we should know how to behave. At the same time, we should be able to repeat the message at the Bhagavad-gītā without changing. Should be able to present it as it is.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Antya 4.104

ei-mata dui-jana nānā-kathā-raṅge
kṛṣṇa-kathā āsvādaya rahi’ eka-saṅge

Translation: In this way the two of them passed their time discussing subjects concerning Kṛṣṇa. Thus they enjoyed life together.

Jayapatākā Swami: Note how one is offering praise to the other, he is totally detached. He doesn’t want to hear his own praise immediately, just ignores it. “No, no. You are the good devotees, not me. My life is useless. You are actually the one who is doing so much service.”

The other one’s saying, “No no! You are the one like this.”

So this is the principle of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. One should not desire respect for oneself, but should rather offer all respect to the other Vaiṣṇavas. tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā, amāninā mānadena. Amāninā means not to take for oneself. Mānadena, to give respect to others. So you can learn this art of not desiring respect for oneself and giving to the others. Here in the movement of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, you see, without paying any fee to learn the same thing, you can pay the Dale Carnegie hundreds of pounds. (laughter) He’s saying the same thing. But actually, the principle is originally coming from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It’s a Vaiṣṇava principle, not to desire respect for oneself, to offer to others. And Dale Carnegie is making millions out of it. So he’s not giving credit. Who’s the original source? Probably because he doesn’t know.

But this is the… this is actually the Vaiṣṇava, or nature of the devotee. Praise runs off them like water off a duck’s back. They’re not attached to receiving praise because sometimes they may receive infamy, maybe criticized. Sometimes they’re praised. So they become equal to all these things. In fact, the Bhagavad-gītā says, a real learned person is someone who is equal to fame and infamy. Honor and dishonor. The dualities of life. It’s like, when there was a devotee who was distributing books in an airport and one man came up and started to chastise the devotee. It was a girl devotee trying to distribute books. And he was saying that, “You people are all cheaters, rascals. What are you doing giving all this useless thing out? Why don’t you do something real? Give people something real.”

So it just happened that one of the supervisors of the devotees was nearby. So he went and kind of relieved the poor girl that was being so harshly dealt with and said, “Well, what’s the matter?”

He said, “Well, these people are just giving out these useless books. What is the value of this? Why don’t they give out something real?” Then he pulls out of his pocket one candy bar. He said, “Like this is something real.” It was a natural. It said, yogī bar. He said, “Look at this. It has cashews, almonds, coconut peanuts, real stuff, natural. Give out something. What’s all this useless knowledge, no practical value.” And he said so many other things, you can’t repeat it.

So that person said, “So you like this natural nut bar?”

He said, “Yes, this is real, this is substance. You can eat it. It tastes good, it builds up your body.”

So he said, “You know who makes this?”

“Here, it says here, New Varṣāṇā… so and so.” 

It was made by… at one point at that time, the devotees had a factory and they were making these natural candy bars. That’s why they were named yogī or bliss bar or something like that.

So then he said “We make that! It’s made by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees.”

“Well, then you guys might not be so bad.” (laughter)

He had to choose between giving up his yogī bar or…

Sometimes people come up and praise, they’re very grateful. Sometimes people come and they say the worst things. So, a person has to become transcendental to the bodily identification that, “If somebody praises me I’m going to feel all jubilant and if somebody criticizes me, I’m going to get completely frustrated and start lamenting.” Become equal. In this way, whatever difficulties come in life, it doesn’t affect you.

You see, some people, they’re just hoping for “oṁ śānti”, everything should be very peaceful, no difficulty. But that’s a very artificial position in the material world. Because at any moment there can be turmoil, there can be so many trials and difficulties. So if a person actually builds up their spiritual knowledge, then even some difficulty comes they don’t lose their temper, they don’t become impatient, they don’t start to lament. Or somebody praises them, they don’t become intoxicated and start to think that, “Now I’m God’s gift to the world.” They just remain as a humble servant of the Lord. So these great souls, they exhibited these qualities, and we can learn from the lives of great devotees how to take on these different qualities.

So the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is meant for enlightening the people that we’re not the body. That we are eternal, spirit, soul. We’re the eternal soul or spirit or living force in the body. And if we understand that we are the living force in the body, not the body; then the next step is to start to act like that. Normally, people center their whole life around trying to simply provide certain amenities for the body. And if the body is a little cold or a little uncomfortable, then that’s very bad. And if the body is a little comfortable, then that’s very good. This is very… your body will never be always comfortable, or it’s always going to sometimes be comfortable and sometimes be miserable. Sometimes it’s attacked by diseases. Sometimes it’s pestered by flies and mosquitoes. Sometimes some near and dear one says so many piercing words that enter into the core of the heart and cause so much pain. There’s always some difficulty which is centered around the body. So practically to understand, we’re not the body; we’re the living force in the body. That’s very basic concept. But it’s most important. When somebody praises us, we don’t become intoxicated by that and forget our responsibility to serve Kṛṣṇa. Or if somebody chastises us, we don’t become so frustrated that therefore we also lose our determination to serve. So to be fixed in devotional service, we have to be equal to both. To all the different dualities. And that comes naturally from identification with the soul, with the self, rather than the body. That is called self-realization. So one puts the theory into practice when one is detached from these different material dualities.

So maybe I should just one… maybe I should open it up for different questions. Maybe some of your questions just have a special idea.

Q&A

Question: Ācāryapāda, Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a pure devotee, and you said he chants 300,000 names a day. But he’s supposed to be the present Brahmā, Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Since he’s such a pure devotee, he should be in Goloka Vṛndāvana. Then why is he being Brahmā?

Jayapatākā Swami: He became a pure devotee when he joined Caitanya Mahāprabhu or when he was serving Kṛṣṇa. He must have had the desire to be a controller since his birth as a Brahmā. Subsequently he is a pure devotee.

Other questions?

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda 

Question: Sometimes people come and they get a very big rush, initial surge of enthusiastic Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And as a consequence of that spiritual experience, they find the material world and their activities in the material very detestable, very rejectable. So, we also find that sometimes when people act very rashly at that stage of their development in spiritual life, later on they feel somewhat disappointed. How should a new devotee act here? 

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, when there’s a stage that one goes through, that the nature of the mind is there, you can always get bored with things after a period of, usually… depends, may vary, say, on average, something as variegated as Kṛṣṇa consciousness, maybe it takes two or three months. Any new thing. Just like you hear a new record, hear it a few times you get tired. See a movie or book. There’s always an initial interest depending on different things, and after a while, it fades. So, similarly, when one enters into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at that time the intelligence and the mind are very attracted. And it’s something new. So even, apart from just a mature… due to maturity or wisdom or something, that’s augmented by the mind also just being very interested in something new.

So, at that time, in the beginning, sometimes you find that a person has a tremendous enthusiasm, and it seems that, “Wow, they’re really, you know, there’s some, they’re very enthusiastic or very good devotees.” But then what happens is that, after a couple of months, the mind starts to go through the normal stage of, well, look for something else. And the system they have is like a cycle. Collect stamps, and you collect coins and you collect something. There’s always something new. That’s your world. So, at that time, if one has sufficient spiritual knowledge.

(Do the deities open right now? I’d like to have darśana.)

So the point is that in that first three months, if a person is able to gather an adequate spiritual understanding, then when the mind starts to get a little restless, the intelligence will be able to answer. It’s like just a mechanical trait of the mind. And then the person can continue. So we stress that it’s like a kind of like when a person first runs, they have what they call the first wind, and they can lose their breath, but they keep running, they get a second wind, and that goes for a long time. So it’s like that. First, the mind immediately likes anything. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a mature understanding.

But at the same time, if they study and actually gain spiritual knowledge, then when the mind starts to go through its tendency, let’s look for something else new, then you’re able to control the mind and differentiate between what’s actually good and nothing. After that, we build up a newer enthusiasm which is on a more mature level. And that doesn’t… that remains as long as you keep up the basic principles of spiritual life.

*(ārati)*

Question: How far one should go spiritually to achieve this goal, to get nirvāṇa. 

Jayapatākā Swami: How far should one go spiritually? All the way.

Question: Yes, spiritually on the way to get nirvāṇa, which is complete happiness after death. That is the meaning of nirvāṇa. Perhaps you might correct me if I’m wrong.

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, nirvāṇa means the cessation of material miseries. So one can achieve the state of nirvāṇa very easily, even before death, by practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can experience the cessation of material miseries and experience spiritual happiness even in this lifetime. It is explained ‘su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam’ in the Bhagavad-gītā (9.2), that this process is very joyfully performed because it gives realization of the self. There’s two types of nirvāṇa: there’s material nirvāṇa, which the Buddhists achieve, which is a cessation of suffering. And there’s a spiritual nirvāṇa called brahma-nirvāṇa, which is realized by yogīs. And that transcendental nirvāṇa gives one unlimited spiritual happiness on the level of the soul. So we are trying to bring people not simply to end their material suffering, but that they can realize the positive happiness which is part of the spiritual platform.

We said the Kṛṣṇa, the supreme personality of Godhead, is by nature sat-cit-ānanda, eternal, blissful, knowledge.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(Bs. 5.1)

So because he’s the transcendental Lord, filled with spiritual bliss, knowledge, eternally. And because we are part of him, mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (Bg. 15.7), therefore we also have the nature of spiritual, eternal blissful knowledge. So we have to awaken our spiritual consciousness. This is done by a process of chanting and hearing. Regularly chanting, morning and night,

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare,
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare 

We recommend that one chant a fixed number of times a day. We have meditational beads which aid one in meditating. Because you can use the sense of feeling while chanting. This helps the concentration. So if you chant for, say, half hour in the morning, half hour at night, gradually increase it till you can chant 16 rounds in a day, which takes about an hour and a half or 45 minutes in the morning, 45 minutes at night. Then you can achieve nirvāṇa for spiritual happiness. Even in this world, even in this lifetime. And when you leave the body, you can go to the spiritual world eternally, known as Vaikuṇṭha, or the place without any suffering.

Questioner: That is what the Christians say as salvation, Mahārāja.

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, we are offering it now. You don’t have to only wait for salvation. You can get the experience now. Otherwise, why the western people are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? They’re not going to simply just waiting for a postdated check. They’re immediately getting an experience of spiritual relief, spiritual peace, spiritual happiness. So, once you take up the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a yoga, very seriously, you can’t achieve that nirvāṇa, brahma-nirvāṇa, even in this lifetime. And when you leave this body, then it’s a natural transition to enter into a spiritual existence. There’s no pain at the time of death. 

Hare Kṛṣṇa! 

Question: One or two questions, but one just came in my mind with respect to Śiva.  What is his position in this world? What is his activity, that if one worships Śiva, then one goes there, or is it like he… what is the position of the living entity if one worships Śiva?  

Jayapatākā Swami: Śiva is a guṇāvatāra. The expansion of Kṛṣṇa, who’s in charge of the mode of ignorance or destruction. At the same time, he’s the original masculine symbol in the universe. So he is very powerful. He’s more powerful than a living entity. And a person. He is known as Āśutoṣa, the one who’s very easily angered and very easily pleased. One time there was a hunter, and he caught a deer, and he hung the deer up from a tree. And so, blood was dripping from the deer onto a Śiva-liṅga. And it was very hot day, so Śiva felt cool from that dripping liquid. He didn’t differentiate what was the liquid or whether it’s water or what. Blood! But he’s very compassionate. Any good quality, he can appreciate that. Then he blessed that hunter with a very big benediction. So now in the hot weather in India, all the ladies and everyone, they go and they put water on Śiva-liṅga to get the blessings.

So the point is that Lord Śiva, he can also give one spiritual blessings. But normally his devotees go to him for material blessings. And it said that whatever blessing he gives materially, in the end it always has some complications. So there’s even a saying that ‘śiva āśīrvāda, kula nāśa’, you get the blessing of Śiva but in the end it destroys your dynasty. So people, they always go to him for different material benediction. But he gives benediction without differentiating whether it’s actually good for someone or not. And sometimes those benedictions, they ruin a person. If someone goes to Śiva and requests spiritual knowledge, he’s also a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He’ll give. He’s a... vaiṣṇavānām yathā śaṁbhuḥ (ŚB. 12.13.16) He can give the greatest knowledge about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And Lord Śiva says that actually he’s kind of disinterested when these different devotees come up to him and ask for some benediction. He gives it without really considering the pros and cons. But when they… he’s actually… he admitted in the fourth canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that the devotees of Kṛṣṇa are the most dear to him. And for them he gives special instruction and special guidance. But normally people go to him only for material reasons. So Kṛṣṇa…. Lord Śiva himself has glorified the worship of Viṣṇu and the worship of Kṛṣṇa. His wife Pārvatī asked him that there are so many types of pūjā and worship so many devas. Which worship should we do? What is the best? So then he replied to Mother Pārvatī,

ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ
viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param
tasmāt parataraṁ devi
tadīyānāṁ samarcanam
(Padma Purāṇa) 

That of all the different types of meditation, worship, of spiritual activity, viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param, the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, that is the supreme. He said, “There’s only one exception, my dear Pārvatī Devī. Tadīyānāṁ samarcanam, to worship those sacred objects connected with Kṛṣṇa. For instance, the devotees of Kṛṣṇa, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, the sacred foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa — mahāprasāde govinde nāma-brahmaṇi vaiṣṇave, svalpa-puṇyavatāṁ rājan viśvāso naiva jāyate. These things are more purifying than even worshipping Kṛṣṇa directly.

So Lord Śiva, if you study the teachings of Lord Śiva in the Bhāgavatam, you’ll find that he advises one: For ultimate liberation, ultimate perfection of life, should worship Vishnu or Kṛṣṇa, the original form of Viṣṇu. So Kṛṣṇa said, those who worship me, come to me. Mad-yājī. And those who worship the demigods—devān deva-yajo yānti mad-bhaktā yānti mām api (Bg. 7.23)— those who worship the devas, they go to the planet of the demigods. And those who worship Kṛṣṇa, they go to His supreme abode.

So the difference between Śiva and Viṣṇu is very subtle in one sense. It’s described that Viṣṇu is like milk. Viṣṇu never has contact with the material nature. When he expands as Śiva, then he has contact with the material nature. Just like milk, in contact with tamarind becomes yogurt. So Śiva is compared to like yogurt or curds. And Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, is like milk. So milk and yogurt are the same. You can change milk to yogurt, but you can’t change yogurt to milk. But it’s the same milk product. Yet there’s a difference. So in this way, Śambhu is considered to be a transformation of Viṣṇu. In the material world.

Questioner: There is a sampadāya, Śiva Sampadaya.

Jayapatākā Swami: There’s a Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, because he’s a pure devotee and he’s a spiritual master also. Therefore, he has established a Vaiṣṇava disciplic succession, known as the Viṣṇuswami and Vallabhācārya from Gujarat is coming in that disciplic succession. You’re from which part of India originally?

Questioner: I’m from Mombasa but my parents were from Gujarat. 

Jayapatākā Swami: Gujarat! So Vallabhācārya is coming in the Viṣṇuswami sect, which is originally… he got inspiration from Lord Śiva. 

Questioner: Is there a planet of Śiva?

Jayapatākā Swami: Kailāsa. Yes, Śiva-dhāma. It’s at the border of the material and spiritual world. You can go there, but if you want to go to the spiritual world, then you have to go to the planets of Viṣṇu-lokas.

Questioner: What is the bodies like in Śiva’s planet. Like we have gross, subtle body, spirit?

Jayapatākā Swami: No, that because it’s at the border, so you have to leave the universe to go there. It’s the border of the material. It’s definitely a more type of spiritualized body. It’s not the ordinary. There’s a Kailāsa in this world, but that’s like Vṛndāvana. There’s a Vṛndāvana in the spiritual world, and there’s Vrindavan in Mathurā, 100 miles… 100 km from Delhi, 50 miles from the Taj Mahal, where Kṛṣṇa has his pastimes. Similary there’s a Kailāsa at the border of the material and spiritual world where there, one has to have a more, it’s a suitable body for that place. It’s not just an ordinary gross material body, but in the material world there’s also a representative of that Kailāsa and that’s in the Himalayas.

Last question?

Question: If there is tinge of material desires at the time of death, how would Kṛṣṇa look at it?  Would He accept it as devotional service? Or would he just consider that…

Jayapatākā Swami: One should have a spiritual master that can purify one’s material desires? There’s a desire to eat. You have to eat to live. So one learns how to eat prasāda or sacred food stuff. Or one has a desire to enjoy family life. So then there’s a way of having a Kṛṣṇa conscious family. One has certain other desires. So there’s ways of practicing, to dovetail or to engage these desires in the productive services of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If a person does it, they get purified from the reactions. Then they can enter into the spiritual world. If a person leaves the body with some very strong material aspirations which are not fulfilled, then Kṛṣṇa may give one another chance to fulfill those desires by taking another birth.

Therefore, in this lifetime we should… we need to confide with more advanced Vaiṣṇavas what type of desires we have and either learn how to engage those in Kṛṣṇa service, or if there is something which is not really beneficial, then how to understand the real nature of those desires and to purify them. We only stay in the material world because we have some very strong desire to fulfill. If our overwhelming desire is to go to Kṛṣṇa, then we go there. But if we want to be a sitar player or something, then Prabhupāda said that Ravishankar took birth. This is his 9th birth. Now he’s become a world-famous sitar player. But that wasn’t his first birth as a sitar player.

Question: Why doesn’t Kṛṣṇa give more evidence that He exists? ?

Jayapatākā Swami: That he exists? So much evidence He is giving. What more evidence you need? He doesn’t give more because there are so many atheistic people that want to believe that there is no God, because that is their overwhelming desire. So, he makes his presence subtle enough that if they want to, they can say, “Well, maybe there’s not a God. It’s all about evolution or something.” Although great thinkers like Einstein and so many others, they all came to the conclusion that there’s definitely intelligence behind the creation of this unity, behind the formation of the universe. Just like in London, every night the street lights are going on. In the morning, people are sweeping the street with machines, and things are going on. We may not see the Lord Mayor, but, you know, there’s a government in the city because everything is going on.

So in the universe, things are all going on like clockwork. You can say, “Well, there’s no example of something that’s so orderly that this is an accident. Just to keep something running, it takes a full administration.” So Kṛṣṇa has a universe. It’s all… there’s summer seasons, and everything is going like clockwork. So people can realize. Well, any sober person can realize there must be some intelligence behind it. Just like we realize there must be a government. Even if you can’t see it, you know that it must be there by the symptoms. And if you chant

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare,
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

then you can directly realize Kṛṣṇa. Why don’t you try this process? And then Kṛṣṇa will reveal himself to you in various ways so that you can have your doubts removed. That’s why He gives us a process of yoga. So by chanting, we can realize it. By practicing the yoga process, we can realize. But for those who don’t want to know the Lord, who want to remain in ignorance, He also provides that option. He gives him a few excuses. “Well, maybe there’s, no…”, although it’s not really common sense. But for the doubting person…

If you’re looking, you’ll find. ? For those who are looking, we’re providing them a means so that they can find. There are some people that they don’t want, they don’t want to know. But for those who want to know, the door is open. They can easily realize.

Question: If I know that I am one with the Divine, can’t I just be aware of this?

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, there’s three levels of Brahman realization. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (ŚB. 1.2.11). So realizing that one is one with the Brahman is considered to be the realization of the sat feature of the Absolute Truth. But if one realizes that the Paramātmā is in the heart, the Supersoul, then that is realizing sat-cit, or knowledge and eternity. And then if you realize his sat-cit-ānanda, then you realize Bhagavān — the Personality of Godhead. He is a personal form of Brahman. Known as Parabrahma. ? Kṛṣṇa means the Parabrahma. So we may realize we’re brahman or we’re spirit, but the Supreme Spirit is Kṛṣṇa. Just like if we say there’s minister and chief minister.  If you say there’s a chief minister, that must mean there must be a minister. Otherwise, you don’t need to say there’s a chief minister or a prime minister. So when you say Parabrahma or the Supreme Brahman, that means there must be ordinary brahman. Otherwise, you don’t need to differentiate Parabrahma and brahman. So he said, ‘ahaṁ brahmāsmi’ – I am brahman. That is that we are one, we are spirit, we are of the same spiritual quality. But the further realization is that actually we are part of the Parama Brahma. And when we establish our relationship with the Parama Brahma, we reestablish our relationship as a servant or a part of the Parama Brahma, then that realization is complete, more than just realizing we’re brahman. We may realize we’re brahman, but as soon as we do any material work, then there’s a reaction. Realizing we’re brahman will also still make us liable to karmic reaction for whatever we do. If we can live without doing anything, all right.

But in bhakti-yoga, because every action is done as a service for the Parama Brahma, He takes the reactions and one is free from karma. So if you’ve already come to the… Kṛṣṇa said, there are four types of people who come to Him. Those who are in distress, those who are in economic need, those who are inquisitive, and those who are wise - who have realized the truth. So if you already realized brahman, you realize the truth of spirit; then Kṛṣṇa said, of all the four, those who are wise men who come to Me and become My devotee, they’re the dearest. So then you can take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and then realize the Parama Brahma, then you can be free from the reactions of karma in this world.

Hare Kṛṣṇa!

(some indistinct exchange) 

One realizes the Parama Brahma, there’s no doubt. It’s a very elevated realization. It includes within it the realization of brahman. So when one realizes the Parama Brahma (Jaya Śrī Śrī Rādhā-Londonīśvara kī… Jaya!) then one also has a certain relationship with the Parama Brahma. And then one is able to experience the spiritual bliss, which is… the symptom of that would be that one becomes detached totally from material suffering and enjoyment. And there’s different levels of development towards realization. So these symptoms are mentioned in the Nectar of Devotion as well as in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Question: What does bhava-bhaya haraṁ, śarvalokaikanāthaṁ mean?

Jayapatākā Swami: Who is the Lord of all universes, the One Single Lord of all universes, who eradicates all fear from the living entities.