19961122 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.13.18

The following is a class given by His Holiness Jayapatākā swami on November 22^nd 1996 at New Tālavana farm in Carrier Mississippi. The class begins with a reading from the  Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam first canto chapter 13 verse 18.

Śrīmad-bhāgavatam 1.13.18

viduras tat abhipretya
dhṛtarāṣṭram abhāṣata
rājan nirgamyatāṁ śīghraṁ
paśyedaṁ bhayam āgatam

Translation (by His Divine Grace Śrīla AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda): Mahātmā Vidura knew all this and therefore he addressed Dhṛtarāṣṭra saying my dear king please get out of here immediately. Do not delay. Just see how fear has overtaken you.

Purport (by Śrīla Prabhupāda): (read by His Grace Jñānagamya Dāsa) Cruel death cares for none, be he Dhṛtarāṣṭra or even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira; therefore, spiritual instruction, as was given to old Dhṛtarāṣṭra, was equally applicable to younger Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. As a matter of fact, everyone in the royal palace, including the King and his brothers and mother, was raptly attending the lectures. But it was known to Vidura that his instructions were especially meant for Dhṛtarāṣṭra, who was too materialistic. The word rājan is especially addressed to Dhṛtarāṣṭra significantly. Dhṛtarāṣṭra was the eldest son of his father, and therefore according to law he was to be installed on the throne of Hastināpura. But because he was blind from birth, he was disqualified from his rightful claim. But he could not forget the bereavement, and his disappointment was somewhat compensated after the death of Pāṇḍu, his younger brother. His younger brother left behind him some minor children, and Dhṛtarāṣṭra became the natural guardian of them, but at heart he wanted to become the factual king and hand the kingdom over to his own sons, headed by Duryodhana. With all these imperial ambitions, Dhṛtarāṣṭra wanted to become a king, and he contrived all sorts of intrigues in consultation with his brother-in-law Śakuni. But everything failed by the will of the Lord, and at the last stage, even after losing everything, men and money, he wanted to remain as king, being the eldest uncle of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, as a matter of duty, maintained Dhṛtarāṣṭra in royal honor, and Dhṛtarāṣṭra was happily passing away his numbered days in the illusion of being a king or the royal uncle of King Yudhiṣṭhira. Vidura, as a saint and as the duty-bound affectionate youngest brother of Dhṛtarāṣṭra, wanted to awaken Dhṛtarāṣṭra from his slumber of disease and old age. Vidura therefore sarcastically addressed Dhṛtarāṣṭra as the “King,” which he was actually not. Everyone is the servant of eternal time, and therefore no one can be king in this material world. King means the person who can order. The celebrated English king wanted to order time and tide, but the time and tide refused to obey his order. Therefore, one is a false king in the material world, and Dhṛtarāṣṭra was particularly reminded of this false position and of the factual fearful happenings which had already approached him at that time. Vidura asked him to get out immediately, if he wanted to be saved from the fearful situation which was approaching him fast. He did not ask Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira in that way because he knew that a king like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira is aware of all the fearful situations of this flimsy world and would take care of himself, in due course, even though Vidura might not be present at that time.

Hariḥ oṁ tat sat!

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Swami translation and purport of text 18, Chapter 13, Canto 1 of the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam.

Jayapatākā Swami: So now Vidura is beginning his heavy preaching, blitzkrieg, to his elder brother Dhṛtarāṣṭra because Dhṛtarāṣṭra’s gonna hang on as long as he can to his position in his family life and is completely impervious to the quick approaching death, not aware of it at all, not thinking about it, even though he is getting old and all his teeth are falling off, his eyesight has already gone from birth so that's not a question but his hearing is getting poor and in old age all the senses start to diminish in their śakti. So he's going through all these phases but he's still hanging on, to be comfortable in his situation. I remember Śrīla Prabhupāda was preaching to one householder devotee, Bengali, in the congregation in India who was already like above sixty/sixty-five and he was telling Prabhupāda, “I wanted to fully dedicate to spiritual life and everything.”

And Prabhupāda said, “So why don't you are on the move into the temple and you should take vānaprastha.”

And he said, “No no, I can't live without my wife. She's been serving me.”

He was a poor man and he had a little like a tin roof house and he was not really well off but he was very attached. He couldn’t live even two days without staying with his family. Although he was a very nice person, but he was getting old and it was obvious that he wasn't going to live so long, but he was not able to detach himself at all. So, this is the normal situation. Prabhupāda brought out, even the politicians especially in India and Asia, you see that politicians stay till their fag end of their life still hanging on to whatever position they have, rather than dedicate their last period of life for spiritual emancipation. The Vedic culture, the end of life is supposed to prepare our self for the next life, at least at the end of life. The whole life is a preparation but the last laps of the race you have to put out your best effort, if at all you want to finish the race with any kind of good result. 

But Dhṛtarāṣṭra he's not even thinking about that. It’s like you know everybody thinks that's not going to happen to me. That was also commented on by Parīkṣit Mahārāja, that the most wonderful thing was that everybody thinks he's not going to die even though they see their grandfathers died. Fathers died. Still doesn't come in their mind (air money) that I could also die somehow, it's something you just put off. Sometimes a loved one who has transcendental knowledge needs to preach the truth heavily to awaken up their relative from the illusion and get them to focus on the spiritual life. This is essential for many people. But usually what happens is you don't have a relative who is so merciful and so conscious. Some devotee also told me how he had went to see his father and his father was on the deathbed, and all the relatives were there and the father the doctor said he is not going to live. One day, two hours, he’s on the way out, fading fast. And he's all worried you know. “What's going to happen? You see that the dog is taken care of and see that the little grandson and this and that.” But people are all, “No no don't worry. Everything will be alright. You're gonna get all right. People crying, the whole scene. And then the devotee comes in there and sees that these people are not helping my father at all. He’s about to die. He said, “Give me five minutes with my father. Five minutes alone. This may be the last period I have to talk.” Sends everybody out, closes the door and tells him, “Look dad, you're about to die. I want to tell you something, that actually you're the spirit soul, living force in the body. You’re eternal, you're never going to die. You have to leave the body. You have to prepare yourself just for this moment. Please repeat after me this meditation of God.” And then got him to chant

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare,
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

and immediately he felt peace. He was peaceful. “Even if I leave the body, I'm not gonna die.”  But when his five minutes were up with his father, they all came and.. “No no no!” Crying, “Everything gonna be alright.” Everything's not going to be alright but then the whole emotional impact. You get bewildered right? So anyway, at least it’s very hard for people to focus their mind at Kṛṣṇa at the end of the life. Certainly is very difficult in that situation with all the emotional relationships with everyone. So that's why it's recommended to go to a holy place at the end of life or to somehow or other focus on Kṛṣṇa, get away from a lot of the entanglements and thus be able to fix your mind on Kṛṣṇa at end of the life.

But Vidura could see that there's no way Dhṛtarāṣṭra is going to be focused in that situation. He's completely unfocused right from the birth. Certainly nothing's going to change where he is. So, he's making one last stab at it, to preach to Dhṛtarāṣṭra and get him out of the illusion. No preaching. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not some kind of impersonal prototype. Like a stereotype kind of a thing. Prabhupāda mentions that preaching can never be stereotyped. Preaching has to be according to the time, place and circumstance, and a person has to have the intelligence how to reach the particular audience. So, in this case Vidura knowing very well his brother, he knew when he was at. So therefore, he specifically chose his words and in the following verses we'll see how he preached to him in a unique way. Preached to him, blasting him there. Just like you know an old dog sitting here eating up the scraps from the very people who have killed all your sons. He just preached, he just gave it to him because he knows that this person, more than any transcendental motivation, is motivated by his false ego. And if I just insult him in a loving way, I'm going to get more mileage out of it than any kind of philosophical presentation, which is quite a unique preaching. Actually, you have to be some type of psychologist to preach. You have to know your audience. But sometimes when you're preaching, you don't want to hear what they say. I mean the toughest thing is to preach to a Sunday feast crowd. There's the spectrum of everybody. Who do you aim? Who do you preach to?

So Dhṛtarāṣṭra is getting the mercy but sometimes the mercy like that is hard to swallow. Now Prabhupāda, he also said “I being in an old Indian body, I can say things you can't say.” Prabhupāda he could sometimes even critically address his fellow younger Indians and get away with it. But if a foreigner does it then they get all, “They're just upstarts. Who are they to tell us our own religion.” Then they get very upset. They're not ready to take that we talk down to them. You have to kind of talk different way. Maybe when we're all white here and everything, then that's a different. Or if they're your disciples, maybe they’ll accept it. But just if you preach to normal Hindus, you find that sometimes they don't take it if you preach to them too heavy, too direct. Because they say, “Well who is he to talk to me like this?”

So Prabhupāda mentioned that it's not that everybody can preach to everyone in the same way. And he could preach ways that we can't. Maybe some circumstances somebody can. And so therefore preaching is target oriented. Preaching is like a doctor taking care of his patient. So, you have to see what is the medicine I can give which is going to deliver my patient. If he'll preach really right on heavy, to everybody the same, but then nobody accepts it then what’s the use? You've not saved anybody. Dhṛtarāṣṭra was getting heavy preaching by Vidura but he knew this was the time and this was the only hope, and so it was like all or nothing. So he gave it his best shot. He gave it his best attempt and he was successful. He knew that we can't even preach to Dhṛtarāṣṭra about being a devotee, because he was envious his whole life against the Pāṇḍavas and Kṛṣṇa. So, to preach to him about bhakti-yoga was not when it'd be very effective. So instead he just preached to him on a level just to get him to give up the material attachments and go to the forest and do mystic yoga.

So that's another thing, that in this case because Dhṛtarāṣṭra was not able to accept bhakti-yoga, still Vidura wanted to give him the best thing that he could take. That's another example of how a preacher considers what is the level that I can elevate this person to, under his or her situation. How can I elevate this person? What is the next best stage that they could reach to? There's no use of preaching to someone who's just in the beginning stages to do things which they could not even conceive of doing. It's almost like doing violence on them. Just like the doctor was describing open heart surgery. When a person is in a very weak situation, they will die right on the operating table.

So, this is what happens. Sometimes because of stereotyped preaching, we may try to present Kṛṣṇa consciousness to someone who's very much in material consciousness, but in a very elevated or forceful manner, and as a result they can die on the operating table and then you never see them again. So, preaching needs to be patient-oriented. Who is the person that were preaching to, how to actually help them, what is the best situation they could achieve at the present situation they’re at? And devotional service is a gradual process where you take them step by step. What's the next step they could get up to? When they get them firmly established at that step, then you can take them up to the next step. Some people can go faster than others. Some people may have been devotees in their previous life and for them they can go very quickly. Someone might be coming in contact with us very recently. Recently meaning maybe they've only had a few births of spiritual activity and not much of devotion. And maybe this is their first birth. So in this way, it's difficult to tell how many births someone's been serving. But some of the symptoms is people who are really spontaneously attracted to Kṛṣṇa when they come, they really have a spontaneous taste for serving and enthusiasm. Something a little bit extraordinary. Enthusiasm symptom that they were devotees in the previous life and they've taken up now where they left off.  Prabhupāda said to many devotees, at one point he was commenting certain of his disciples were devotees in the previous life and that's why they could take it up so quickly. Even if we tried to protest, then Prabhupāda would get angry. “Don't doubt the words of your spiritual master.” Everybody is not in the same situation. We have to preach in the general way. When we go on to specific preaching, we have to consider how we can help this person. What’s the best scenario they could considerably achieve? And help them to get there. And of course, Dhṛtarāṣṭra, he's just at the fag end of his life. There's not much hope for him to survive much longer. So Vidura is trying to get him into some kind of meditation and that was better than nothing. And there won't be much time for him to do more than that, as he is really old. Very very old.

So we can see here how Vidura sarcastically called him rājā but he wasn't the king. King Dhṛtarāṣṭra! The king was Yudhiṣṭhira but ‘King Dhṛtarāṣṭra’. “You think you’re the king. You’re just hanging on to this royal prestige. you're not a king so give up all these attachments and actually ready yourself to go back home, back to Godhead. That's noble.” This is what Prabhupāda really appreciated. That any attempt to be God conscious, any attempt to achieve self-realization is actually great. It’s noble in this world. It's something really wonderful. Most people don't even try. They don't try for this spiritual advancement. They don't try to let the living force take control of our intelligence and the mind and the senses. They don't try to spiritually understand who they are. They just go with the flow, like running into the ocean. They just go where everybody is going. It is said that most people they're just blind and they just follow what everybody else does. But the actual intelligent person tries to understand, “What is the purpose of life? Why am I here? What will happen to me after I die? What is the whole purpose of life? How can I live in such a way that I'll be able to achieve a self-realization in this lifetime?”

So sometimes unusual things wake us up. For instance, in the Padma Purāṇa there's a history about two people born in the family of devotees. They become husband and wife but they were very negligent in their spiritual life. They just didn't pay attention to their Kṛṣṇa consciousness so even though they had the advantage of being born from parents who are devotees and brāhmaṇas. So then they were wandering, traveling around checking different things out around the world. Trying to experience life. So one day in their journey it was hot. They sat under a big tree where nice shade was there. And so they're cooling down a bit. They didn't know that this tree was previously used by some king to hang criminals. It was the hangman's tree and it was filled with subtle entities. She was feeling kind of an eerie mood there in that tree. But that kind of stimulated her and she asked her husband that, “What is the purpose of life? What are we doing here wandering around everywhere? I don't feel satisfied. What is the whole purpose of life? What are we meant to do? What is life? Who are we? Why are we forced to suffer in this material world? What happens after we die?” Just like threw out the questions.

The husband wanted to show off that he was in tune spiritually. He had remembered half a verse in the Bhagavad-gītā when he was in the gurukula. He could remember half the verse and that kind of summed up this point. So he declared the first part of the first verse of the eighth chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā

kiṁ tad brahma kim adhyātmaṁ kiṁ karma puruṣottama

‘Kiṁ tad brahma’ means what is the Absolute Truth or the self?

What is the absolute truth kiṁ tad brahmā kim adhyātmaṁ or what is the self?

‘Kiṁ tat karma?’ What is the law of karma?

Puruṣottama - O Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because Arjuna was asking Kṛṣṇa. When he shouted this out, he spoke it very loudly, very forcefully. ‘kiṁ tad brahma kim adhyātmaṁ kiṁ karma puruṣottama ’ THUD! There was a huge explosion and that *crashing sound* tree kind of fell over.  They were in the hot sun and the tree luckily didn't fall on them. They see all these *entities coming out* subtle entities coming out of the tree and they're all achieving spiritual bodies. Just under a tree, they just chanted half a verse of the Bhagavad-gītā. By hearing that sacred words, the vibration that Kṛṣṇa himself has spoken, all the ghosts were liberated from their material bondage. That man was like completely amazed. “What did I do? Wow! This verse has got a lot of śakti. Lot of potency. Just by chanting and look at all these ghosts, all got liberated. So he became very focused. Just like all of a sudden, he went from kind of really lazy in his spiritual life, little puffed up and lazy to really focused. Bhagavad-gītā has this potency so he'd be chant chanting after every day in the morning he would chant for hours and hours:

kiṁ tad brahma kim adhyātmaṁ kiṁ tad karma puruṣottama
kiṁ tad brahma kim adhyātmaṁ kiṁ tad karma puruṣottama  

It’s like a mantra. He is chanting it day after day. His whole life he is waiting. “What is going to happen for me? All the others got liberated.” (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa kept him on the line for a while. One day in the spiritual world the goddess of fortune looked at the Supreme Personality of Godhead and saw He is smiling and said, “What are you smiling about? What are you laughing about?” He said, “Well there's this brāhmaṇa in the planet Earth and he's chanting half a verse of the Bhagavad-gītā every day and I’m just thinking what is that I can give him? What kind of what benediction can I give him in return for what he's doing?” And then at the end he called for him and took him back.

So even a little bit of spiritual life and devotional service of contact with Kṛṣṇa can easily deliver someone. But we don't even do the little bit. Lord Caitanya came in the world to give everyone the chances that everybody tried to chant everyday

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare,
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare,

took some Kṛṣṇa prasādam and tried to help other people to be free from their misery and their suffering due to illusion, everyone can easily get back to Kṛṣṇa. Easily we be very happy in this life, free from those contaminations and be eligible to go back to Godhead in the next life. So, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He advised that bala kṛṣṇa, bhaja kṛṣṇa, kara kṛṣṇa-śikṣā. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, worship Kṛṣṇa and study the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. What are the teachings of Kṛṣṇa? Who can say?

Devotee: Bhagavad-gītā.

Any other teachings of Kṛṣṇa? Which books are considered teachings of Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam.

Yes, because Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is spoken about Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. So both are considered teachings of Kṛṣṇa or kṛṣṇa-kathā. So by reading everyday Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, this has a tremendous effect to purify us from the illusory energy. Focus on what the actual Truth is. Sometimes we hesitate to get involved in spiritual life and we kind of just stay on the surface and we miss what is the whole point. There is an example how there was a honeybee looking at a glass bottle of honey and he wanted to get to the honey. He kept going backwards. He couldn't see the glass. He could just see the honey. In his vision that glass was like invisible. So he came back and buzzing *buzzing sound followed by crashing sound* Flew right in to dive into the honey and POW! He hit his head on the glass bottle and was knocked down. “That’s the hardest honey I've ever found! (laughter) Usually honey it's very soft and sticky. So let me try one more time.” *buzz and crash* Again it smashed itself. So she went back for the third time and again tried, but again the honey bee, she was smashed up. So finally being completely punch-drunk and dazed from all the collisions with the glass bottle, somehow she’s flying around the glass bottle, she landed on the top of the glass bottle. And there the aroma, the scent of the honey was very strong. And then in her dazed stage, she thought I reached the honey. I have achieved honey. Honey state. But actually, see hadn’t achieved the honey. She was just on the lid. Honey was still inside.

Sometimes we try and try to get spiritual life. But we don't actually have a bonafide spiritual master. We don't follow the process. Someone has to open up the jar of honey and then we can get inside. You might get very close, you may see it, you try different ways and finally you get close and we think, “Now I've achieved it!”, because we can smell it. We’ve not actually achieved God consciousness. When we actually achieve God consciousness, it is something very sublime. That time the nature of the soul which is always happy manifests and we become very relieved from material sufferings and we become spiritually naturally happy, blissful in the heart. Then all kinds of good qualities of Kṛṣṇa, like compassion for others and many good qualities start to manifest.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He used to criticize the brāhmaṇas how they, even the brāhmaṇa devotees would just follow what everybody else did without really knowing. In many cases people don't take the time to know and understand what is the philosophy. Sometimes a brāhmaṇa would come down with his plate to do worship of the Ganges and every brāhmaṇa came there with the plate, with the ārati, ārati tray with the lamp to offer a flower, incense. So how to recognize which was his plate? He was thinking, “You know I come out, I might take somebody else's by mistake.” So he picked up a little piece of the Ganges mud, rolled it into a ball, put it on his plate. And he went took his bath. After bathing, came out to get it. He found every plate had a little ball of Ganges mud. “Oh, he put a ball. Maybe that's the rule. You have to put a ball of Ganges mud.” Without thinking they all picked up Ganges mud put a ball on their plate, because one person did it. They didn't know why he was doing it, but the reason he was doing it so that his plate was different than everybody else. If they knew the principle why he put the ball, somebody would put a twig and someone else would put pebbles and everyone puts something different. So that is why Kṛṣṇa consciousness is known as buddhi-yoga, the yoga of intelligence. It is recommended that we try to understand the principles behind why we do the things we do, so that way we can apply it in different circumstances.

So, this verse today where Vidura is preaching, you see if someone blindly thinks that, “Okay Vidura chastised his brother and heavied them out, and therefore he gave up everything. So this is what I should do. Everybody I meet, I should chastise them and heavy them out and everyone will surrender.” That would be a stereotyped imitation. (laughter) You’d burn everybody out, nobody will surrender and they’d say, “This person is a horrible person!”, and so on. So you have to understand the principle what is Vidura doing. That actually he is preaching to this person only in the way that will reach the person. If you understand the principle, then we would apply it differently to different people depending on what will touch their heart. What will awaken them. We actually want to administer medicine which will awaken people and free them from whatever they are losing, whatever their conditioning might be. Whatever way we can help them in their spiritual life. So, the principle needs to be understood. Then you apply the principle. You can apply it to so many circumstances. But if you don't know the principle, you just follow the superficial example like what has been done here then you can create havoc. So I'll give some time here for questions and answers.

Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Yes?

*A question about preaching tactics*

Jayapatākā Swami: Well I don't know why if someone is about to die, there is ways you could dovetail that in terms of preaching. You could say that, “Well you know, astrology, there's a science saying what are the influences on you from your karmas since birth. Normally in the material circumstances, people cannot change their karma. They tend to go on a particular direction and just stick in that direction. According to my reading, you may not have a very long period to survive the way you're going. However, there's a supreme power that's above all of us that can change karma. And I don't know if you're interested, but if you chant mantra you may be able to change the karma because mantras can change one's karma. All I can do is read what karma you have, what your present influences are. And what they are now doesn't indicate a very long life at this point. But if you if you try mantra therapy, then you may be able to change your karma.” And maybe they’ll be fired up! I have some doctors that give free medical treatment and then they find a lot of the people, the main problem is almost psychological and they get them also to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. South America. They also give some medicine.

Any other questions?

*A question about using technology for preaching*

Well, that's why when we go around, and because we're trying to use it for more progressive spiritual purpose, some people just talk with us in a very commercial sense and they just do business. But some people actually express that this is the kind of thing I was hoping to do. To actually do something which would use this technology to help people become more aware of who they are, make a really better world. Some people said that we would prefer not to have ‘whack-you-up’ exhibits and we prefer to have something with more substance. Of course, what they usually their substance is what they call an edutainment, educational entertainment. Edutainment. But still it's not spiritual. But this is like probably one of the few, very rare, people are trying to use these things for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For spiritual upliftment of people.

Actually, Śrīla Bhakti Siddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, he did the first theistic exhibit in Calcutta. At that time, he had a whole display of dioramas and some of them were moving. So, he was like the forerunner of animatronics and using figures for presenting the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, and philosophical presentation. So Prabhupāda, he also wanted to use these figures and sometimes he said even something just apart from showing Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes is some of them could be even satirical. You could show some mad scientist doctor with a dead patient on the bed. Like the patient is dead and he’s got a oversized syringe and he's trying to inject some chemical in him to bring him back to life. There is no cure for death at the present time but they’re cheating people by telling, “Don't worry. In the future everything will be alright. We're gonna figure it out. Nobody's gonna die.” It’s just another form of cheating in the name of science. So Prabhupāda wanted to use different kinds, even satirical presentation, to make people look at things in a different perspective. So one of the people we talked to yesterday said, “We like to think of an exhibition as a kind of, like say there's a black box where you enter in one side, with one set of principles and set of values. When you come out, you change. You're taking something with you which has added something to your value of life, to your values in life.

So everybody wants to do that. But in reality if you don't have something spiritual to offer people, the most you can do is maybe touch their moral sense or their sense of appreciation of finer things in life. Maybe beauty. Probably what they do is they bring them up a little bit to more refined levels of rajo-guṇa or maybe the sattva-guṇa. But we're coming and we having Vāsudeva platform, which is the transcendental platform, pure goodness and I’m very hopeful, very confident actually that by presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this way, we'll be able to change the consciousness of many people. This will be very pleasing to Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura and Śrīla Prabhupāda. But otherwise, obviously it's like māyā's kingdom, right? This is creating a bigger web of illusion to entrap people. To cut a tree down, you have to use a limb from the tree. Take an axe, the axe handle is also a piece of the tree. So to cut the illusion of people that is being enhanced by all this technology we can also use a certain amount of technology to cut through the illusion.