19791006 - Darśana

The following is a class given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swāmī Mahārāja on October 6th, 1979.

Offering garlands, flags are there, held big speakers. So this is your worship of Lenin. But we see that Lenin is a man, who is in a piece of earth, he is six feet by one feet, in a hole. He has died like anyone else, but we are preferring to worship Kṛṣṇa, because we see He has got unlimited transcendental qualities. He has created the whole universe and all the unlimited universes. And therefore we prefer to worship Kṛṣṇa who is God; rather than Lenin or anyone else who is a man. But whoever you may be, you must admit that we must worship someone. We must serve. So it's just a question of who you will serve. Service is the real religion of man. So the question is shall I serve other men who are imperfect or shall I serve the supreme perfect, Kṛṣṇa. So then if we have a choice then we start to evaluate, ultimately, any intelligent person will say “No, I want to serve the greatest.”

There is a story about one man, he was a tailor. And he was sewing clothes for the other people. And he thought, “Why I am serving for... let me sew clothes for the greatest person. So then he found out the mayor of the town and he was sewing his clothes. He said, “Please, I want to serve you because you are very great.” Then he saw that when the King came, that, he was bowing down before the King and giving the taxes. So he said, “How is this you are bowing down?” He said, “This is the King, he is much greater.”Then he went to the King, “Please dear King, you are the greatest person. I want to serve you.” So he said, “All right.” So then he came in and he was sewing clothes for the King. So then he saw that sometimes the King is going to the forest, and there in a forest there was one saint, one hermit and the King bowed down before this sādhu, this great devotee. And so he came and said, “Aha! What is this? King is bowing down?” He said, “I thought you were the greatest.” He said, “No but I am bowing before my Guru. My Guru is greater than I am.” Then he said “Accha”, (laughter) Indian; so then he said, “Oh! You are the greatest.” King's Guru says “No, I'm not the greatest. I'm the servant of the greatest. The greatest is Kṛṣṇa. You should serve Him.” So this is natural, we should serve the greatest.

And of course, Kṛṣṇa, His advice is “Yes, if you like to please Me, you co-operate together and try to give My teachings to the fallen souls. So they can lead a perfect life and come back to Me.” So this way one can serve everyone, by serving Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we'll simply be whimsical and there'd be no benefit by that. We'll waste our time and they’ll waste their time. Blind leading the blind. They all fall in a ditch. Is that all right?

Devotees: Yes

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: So now who do you want to serve?

Devotee: [devotees speaking]...God Kṛṣṇa

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Hari bol!

Devotees in response: Hari bol!

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Yes?

Devotee: I have 3 small questions.

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: I don't know if I can handle 3! (laughter)

Devotee: First, is there any Indian guru except the Founder in ISKCON? Second, since there are so many souls coming and going out of Kṛṣṇa, what steps are taken if some mistake is committed? I mean like if the proper soul is not given the proper body?

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: (laughs) Kṛṣṇa doesn’t make mistakes.

Devotee: And third is, will there be a time when there is any Indian Guru excluding the founder in ISKCON?

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Guru is not Indian or American or German or Swedish.

Devotee: I mean his body.

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: The Guru is not considered to have an ordinary material body. His body is spiritualized. He is given second birth as the son of Kṛṣṇa. If one sees Guru as being Indian or American, then it is described if one sees a Guru 'guru na mati' or if he sees Deity, 'Mūrti shilasu' - if he sees the Mūrti as a stone, as a material object or if he sees, what's the third one? A Vaiṣṇava, 'Vaiṣṇava jāti buddhi'- If he sees a Vaiṣṇava as being of any particular caste, to see the Guru as a human being, to see a Vaiṣṇava as a jāti, like a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra or as a black or as a white or as a Russian or as a Chinese or as an American or an Indian. If one sees as jāti buddhi, then it says that these people are residents of hell.

Devotee: So there is no answer to this question?

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: That means that nobody can answer that question without being a pāṣaṇḍī, without being an offender. Because the Guru is not a question of nationality. You should understand what is Guru? Guru is He who has Kṛṣṇa; who is representing Kṛṣṇa, according to the sādhu and the śāstra, He is Guru. And a Vaiṣṇava, that someone who is a Vaiṣṇava He is not part of this world. He is directly connected with Kṛṣṇa.Whatever He was previously before being a Vaiṣṇava, that is due to so many karmas. But as soon as He becomes a Vaiṣṇava all those karmas are finished. 'apavithro pavithrova va - Whatever is pure or impure, whatever is impure that becomes purified.

apavitrah pavitro va sarvavastham gato ‘pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksham sa bahyabhyantarah sucih
śrī viṣṇu śrī viṣṇu śrī viṣṇu'

Inside and outside he becomes fully purified by the power of Viṣṇu mantra at the time of initiation. Just like a touchstone can touch lead and make it gold. The mantra of Guru changes one from material to spiritual.

So if one sees a Vaiṣṇava, “Oh He is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava, then here is a Muslim Vaiṣṇava or here is a this Vaiṣṇava”, he does not know what is Vaiṣṇava. He is making offense. Vaiṣṇava has got no caste or creed. “Here is a very big fat Vaiṣṇava, here is a thin Vaiṣṇava.” That's not the qualification. Who has got Kṛṣṇa, who is serving Kṛṣṇa purely, He is Vaiṣṇava. There is no other caste. This is special caste. When you say what is the gotra of a Vaiṣṇava, it is Acyuta gotra.It is a separate gotra, separate everything. You should try to find out who, which Guru is a Vaiṣṇava Guru, not which Guru is an Indian or American or this or that, Swedish, or Russian or Chinese. Which Guru is a pure Vaiṣṇava Guru? Who is purely serving Kṛṣṇa? Whoever has Kṛṣṇa. “Kṛṣṇa ditte paare” You can give Kṛṣṇa. That is what we pray everyday. You are Guru because, you can give Kṛṣṇa. If you find someone who has Kṛṣṇa, who is very much addicted to Kṛṣṇa, then you know that he has Kṛṣṇa. Then you should try to get Kṛṣṇa from him. That is what one tries to get from Guru. That is the greatest thing he can get. If one approaches Guru, for something else, then he is not very intelligent.

So a Guru may have any material body, but we have to see what He has; if He has Kṛṣṇa or not. If He has Kṛṣṇa then we should approach him. It's that what we want. Guru is meant to give Kṛṣṇa. You go to the shop to buy some groceries. You go to the airline to get airline ticket. You go to Guru to get Kṛṣṇa. So you have to find out where is the Vaiṣṇava Guru who has Kṛṣṇa. You may find Indian Guru, but He may not have Kṛṣṇa. You may find a Russian Guru, but He may not have Kṛṣṇa. Whoever the Guru, you have to see if He is actually. Real Guru means that He has no jāti. He is Vaiṣṇava Guru. You can understand?

Devotee: How can one get fixed up?

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: How can one get fixed up? By following the instructions of one’s spiritual master, as more dear than one's own life. See, if somebody tries to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness with his own brain, he won't do it. One has to approach and take instruction from those who know. Kṛṣṇa is the way He is. He spoke Bhagavad-gītā. We should study the Bhagavad-gītā, what Kṛṣṇa has said. Everything is there. A lot of the questions are answered simply by reading the words of Kṛṣṇa. But if you try to figure it out with your own limited intelligence, then what happens is that it can become very confusing.

Just like in our experience if I take something out of here it becomes empty. So you are thinking if I take souls out, then where everybody will go away. How the universe will go on? There is the one big God who will be standing there and all the planets will be empty. You see but the point is that there is a constant influx also. Kṛṣṇa can manifest so many additional souls though they are in different places. That is possible. So the universe is always filling up. So we have to understand a thing, we should not try to speculate that how this is going on. We should try to read from the authorized scriptures, hear from the bonafide sources how the thing is going on. Not try to think of it with our own brain. Because surely we'll make a mistake. It's very complex and it does not work in a way which may immediately come to our logic.

Just like the śāstra says that bones are impure. 'Haar', you know bone? What is your mother tongue?

Devotee: Hindi.

Jayapatākā Swāmī: Hindi. So they call it 'haar', the bone?

Devotee: Haddi

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Haddi. So they say the bone of any animal, this is considered to be impure. Asuci or apavitra. But, we are using a bone everyday in our pūjā. We use the Shankh, the conch. So that is a bone of a sea animal. But śāstra says that this is a pure one. In the same way, the śāstra says that any stools, mal or moothra, what do you call?

Devotee: Mal

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Mal of any animal, this is apavitra or this is impure. You call asuci?

Devotee: Apavitra.

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Apavitra. So if one touches, he has to take a bath. If one due to touch, then he has to take a bath. That’s considered to be a very bad. Yet, we are using cow dung to purify the house. In the Hindu family, they'll take some cow dung and water and that will purify. Because, śāstra says that cow dung is pavitra. Now you can say how it is here it is saying one thing and here it is saying another. Cow dung is nothing but stool of the cow. So śāstra has got some general instruction and some specific instruction. The cow dung is an exception. Cow dung is the exception. And even now the scientist, they have tested cow dung. And they find that yes it has antiseptic qualities.

We don't care whether the scientist found it out or didn't find it out. We already know, scripture says 'Cow dung is pavitra'. So we believe it. And now the scientist after, took them 5000 years to invent the microscope. Now they can say, ‘Oh yes this is antiseptic’. But we knew by śāstric pramān. Jagadish Chandra Bose is great scientist in India. He found that the plants have a consciousness. But the Vedas say in the Sanskrit that this is Jiva. Jiva means it has consciousness, has ātmā. So what Jagadish Chandra Bose has found out and now he is a famous scientist, that information he got from the Vedas. So we get our information directly from Kṛṣṇa through the Vedas by the Guru paramparā. One has to link up with the Guru paramparā.

The chain of Guru should go right back to Kṛṣṇa that should be unbroken. And each master should follow his master perfectly. And that way this unbroken chain is bringing down the message. To know that who is qualified, one has to see that who is his father, who is his father, who is his Guru, who is his Guru and then see what is that line? Sometimes you find that person says “He is my Guru, he said he is my Guru.” Who is his Guru? “Oh, he has no Guru”, then he says. This is no sampradāya, this is no paramparā. If you have here this light, and here is the wire and they say where does the wire go? It's going here; it's going there, it’s going there, it’s going here. Why it's not lighting, then you find out that here it's dangling, loose. It's not connected with the power house. So we have to connect with the power house. Kṛṣṇa is the power house. If the connection is there, doesn't matter, some wire might be fat, some might be thin, may have different colour insulation. But if it is connected with the power house, and we touch it, what will happen? We get the shock. And if it is not connected, there is no light. I can make beautiful mail box, just here, paint that up, ‘Swedish Post Office’ and put it outside on the road. And people will go and start putting their letters and I’ll put the deliveries in such and such time. Will those letters go anywhere? Where?

Devotee: dustbin [laughter]

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: You are very intelligent. [laughter] Someone who is intelligent, he can understand spiritual life. So the point is that the post office if they recognize, even the box may not be so good. May be little beat-up. Paint might be worn out. But if the post office recognizes, this is authorized box. Any mail you put, that will go. And even if you have very nice box, you might even need to see this painting with gold leaf ‘Post Office’. There is no use. Because it does not recognize. So one has to find out who is recognized by Kṛṣṇa.Other people they may have the idea that I want a box that this shape. But whatever shape the post office gives, that shape if we put our letter, it’ll go. Even if I build here one big building and put post office, that will just be one big dustbin. So we have to find who is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. And that is recognized through this Guru paramparā. That person if we serve Him, follow his instructions how to serve Kṛṣṇa, then that message will go to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa’s mercy will come down through Him. One more question.

Devotee: It is said that the spiritual master is not different from his instruction. Still in practice, we can't get this taste, we still feel difference when the person is present. What should be our attitude?

Jayapatākā Mahārāja: Well, when the spiritual master is personally present. Like say the spiritual master says that, you should chant… Say he says, you should go to bed at 10 o’clock and get up in the morning at 4. But spiritual master is arriving just at the time of maṅgala-ārati. So if you go to maṅgala-ārati and don't greet your spiritual master, you are considered to be an offender. Because there is higher principle is that the spiritual master when he is there, he should be received, unless He says, “No!” But the idea is that, of course, when the spiritual master is there, there is something special.

The point that when he is not present. So that sometimes devotees complain that those who are serving personally the spiritual master, it is very difficult. Because He may demand anything anytime he may require in his service to Kṛṣṇa. So this sometimes becomes very difficult. Time, schedule becomes off, so many different things. It becomes difficult to do many things. But this is a higher principle is to serve directly. The point is that say that one is not directly serving the spiritual master. But he has given an instruction. Then by following that instruction he can feel the presence of his spiritual master.

So on the other hand, when one is serving his spiritual master personally, in his presence, then it's also very easy. If he tells you “Go and get me this!” immediately you can understand that I should go and get this. Apart from the austerity of maybe his schedule is more rigorous than ordinary devotees. But one can easily follow such instructions, because He is just saying, “Alright! Standup, sit down, go here, come there!”, like this, it’s very concrete. But when the spiritual master is not present, and he is given orders, “Don't do this, do this, don't do that, do this!” Then the tendency is, “Well, he is not watching”. That now we have to follow according to our faith, according to our love for him. Well, other time even our faith or love may not have been so strong because he is just there standing. So it's easy for us to follow on that sense. So that’s why I said that following the order is sometimes a greater test. And when one is actually following the orders of the spiritual master, he can feel his presence. How by following the order, I'm connected, I'm linked with Him.

Is that your question?

Devotee: Yes.