19870623 Bhagavad-gītā 4.20

The following is a class given by Jayapatākā Swami on June 23rd, 1987 given in Sydney, Australia. The class begins with a reading from the Bhagavad-gītā, chapter 4, text 20.

tyaktvā karma-phalāsaṅgaṁ
nitya-tṛpto nirāśrayaḥ
karmaṇy abhipravṛtto ’pi
naiva kiñcit karoti saḥ

Translation: Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.

(Translation being repeated by devotees)

Jayapatākā Swami: Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.

Purport: This freedom from the bondage of actions is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one is doing everything for Kṛṣṇa. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person acts out of pure love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore he has no attraction for the results of the action. He is not even attached to his personal maintenance, for everything is left to Kṛṣṇa. Nor is he anxious to secure things, nor to protect things already in his possession. He does his duty to the best of his ability and leaves everything to Kṛṣṇa. Such an unattached person is always free from the resultant reactions of good and bad; it is as though he were not doing anything. This is the sign of akarma, or actions without fruitive reactions. Any other action, therefore, devoid of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is binding upon the worker, and that is the real aspect of vikarma, as explained hereinbefore.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta translation and purport to Chapter 4, text 20 of the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is in the chapter entitled “Transcendental Knowledge.”

Jayapatākā Swami: So, everyone has heard about karma, the law of work. That for every action there is an equal reaction. Which explains why persons are born blind or crippled as a reaction to previous activities in a previous birth. Every action a person is doing there’s going to be reaction for it. A reaction which we’ll get either immediately in this lifetime or in a future life. That means that we become implicated or we become bound to receive certain reactions according to our activities being performed at present. So then where is the hope for getting free from being independent for being liberated from this chain of reactions when everything we’re doing is creating a new reaction and that reaction is again implicating us in other actions which are creating new reactions. So, one reaction is producing a new reaction, and that reaction is yet producing another reaction and this way the person is hopelessly bound in a chain of events that he could not get out of. [silence] Even if he tries.

However, the Bhagavad-gītā explains to us that there is an opportunity to get out of this chain of reactions. And here it is describing the nature of a person who has already become independent and liberated from the bondage of actions. That is the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or bhakti-yoga. Sometimes people think that the solution is to stop acting. One of the ancient systems was to go into the mountains or the forest and to simply meditate without performing any action. But in this regard Kṛṣṇa explained, the master of yoga, explained that stopping action is not a solution. We have to see different types of action. To stop an action and be actionless that’s another form of action. That will also produce a result. In the previous verses, just to give you an overview, it explains:

Bg 4.16: “Even the intelligent are bewildered in determining what is action and what is inaction. Now I shall explain to you what action is, knowing which you shall be liberated from all misfortune.”

Bg 4.17: “The intricacies of action are very hard to understand. Therefore one should know properly what action is, what forbidden action is and what inaction is.”

Bg 4.18: “One who sees inaction in action and action in inaction is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in all sorts of activities.”

Now there’s someone who being frustrated in life wants to stop action, that’s also a material response and there’s also action, in other words for every action there’s a reaction. If someone stops acting that will also produce a reaction. So, in other words stopping acting is also a form of action because it’s going to produce a reaction. Then what is this action, inaction and action?

Bg 4.19: “One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every endeavor is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker for whom the reactions of work have been burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge.”

Bg 4.20: “Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.”

That if we act in the action whatever the act is what the reaction will be depends on our consciousness, not simply the gross activity. For instance, with a knife a surgeon is saving a life, he’s taking out a tumour or repairing some defective artery. Although he’s cutting the flesh, he’s cutting right through the flesh and the muscle. But he’s saving the patient. Later on, he also sews that up and things are corrected. On the other hand, with a similar knife a thief, he may also cut someone’s flesh but his purpose is to steal and to take away unlawfully what belongs to another. So, the action of cutting is not important it’s the consciousness with which it’s being done.

Where if we do an activity, if it’s to help others then that activity may be in the mode of goodness, it’ll bring a pious reaction. If it’s for our own material benefit then it may, bring a reaction on a more passionate or a more ‘um personal level, gross material level, it’ll be neutral. If it harms others, if it’s irresponsible [sic], if it’s inconsiderate of the effect it will produce in causing inconvenience to others then it produces a destructive result in the end. [silence] So, for every action depending on the purpose there’s going to be a different type of reaction. Any action in the material world will bind us to the material world. We are living in a material body. We identify that this body is our self. But actually, body which is always changing from child to youth to middle age to old age. The body is not our real identity, the body is a vehicle which takes us from one place to the next. It’s a tool, a machine of material nature that we can use. If we use the body in one way, we can become liberated from the material world, if we use it in another way, we’ll become hopelessly entangled and further bound to various material situations. [silence] So, it’s very important to know who we are and what actions we perform will produce a favourable result. Which actions will bind us, which actions will free us from this material world, from material suffering? The law of karma is very intricate and a person may do one thing but get a totally different result without knowing the intricacies of this law.

For instance, in India, in one of the histories the Puranas it mentions that once there was a very wealthy man. He had many children, he built a big house, became very powerful in society. He worked very hard to leave all of his wealth for his children. He never trained his children in spiritual science, in the real purpose of life. Never built their character or taught them to be good. But he gave them fabulous wealth. One day he was going along the street and there was a shoe repairman who requested him to please help him out with a donation. So, he thought I’m a great aristocratic rich man, here’s a poor person... let me give him a donation. So, he gave him a handsome donation, he went on. So according to the laws of karma that shoe man became indebted to that donor. He had to repay that aristocratic man even though it was a donation but by laws of karma he was indebted. So how was he going to repay the debt karmically? So, after that rich man died, he left his body he entered into the womb of the wife of that cobbler when he was engaging in sexual relation and he became the son of the cobbler or the shoe repairman so that the cobbler could pay back the debt because parents offer so much service to the children in this way by giving so much selfless service to the rich man in a form now of his son. Of course, now being born the son of the cobbler now he was a poor man. Of course, there are other intricacies why he was born a poor man not that was the only reason but that was one of the primary factors. So, when he grew up, he learned the trade from his father and he became a cobbler also. So, he’d go and repair people’s shoes, polish shoes do things like that. So, as it would be that he went to the house, where he’d be, the previous house that he had built, the house he gave to his children. He went to that house. To ask if there was any work. Then he was given a job, he was repairing the shoes of one of his own sons in the previous life. That son was very proud so he started to abuse the cobbler “that you’re good for nothing, you’re just a poor man, I’m very wealthy, I’m very aristocratic.” Kindly you should pay for the repair job. Why should I repay you?

And he started taking his shoe and I don’t like the work you did and started beating him with his shoe. This cobbler, which is actually his own father from the previous life. Because he had never trained his children to be spiritually conscious. They had such a nasty character. He was being beaten by his own son. He was getting the result. So, in this way the laws of karma are very complicated, no one can easily see what’s going to happen. Says a man when he leaves his body if he’s thinking of a woman say his wife or a loved one. In his next life he takes his birth as a woman. When a woman leaves her body and she thinks of a man, next life she takes birth in a male body. The living force in the body is beyond the material gender or male and female. So, depending on its thought when we leave the body, how we develop our consciousness.

What we think of when we leave the body, we get that type of destination. So, yoga, the purpose of yoga is actually to train the consciousness, to purify the consciousness so naturally it thinks in such a way that we don’t get entangled in material world. We do not entangle in material reactions. That the next birth we take, actually that we can be freed from the cycle of reincarnation, the cycle of birth and death. That we can go back to the spiritual world. So, the easiest method is not to give up action but to act but on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. To perform devotional offerings to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the form of different activities. Just like tonight everyone was chanting and dancing very ecstatically, the whole building was vibrating. So that’s an action, so much energy was produced, but that is the action that was dedicated as a meditation on Kṛṣṇa therefore there’s no material reaction for that activity. Similarly, there’s no reaction for doing ordinary work simply for maintaining one’s body and soul together if the overall objective of a person’s life is to achieve liberation from this material bondage, to achieve a transfer to the spiritual world at the end of life. Then quantities of material activity meant for maintenance of a good health will not be major obstacles. But as Kṛṣṇa explained in the Bhagavad-gītā moderation is required, moderation and recreation, moderation and charity everything requires a certain plan of action. So that the activities are actually offered to Kṛṣṇa. They’re done as a conscious offering. Consciously connected with Kṛṣṇa as a devotional service. That form of yoga, yoga of action is very scientific. In order to develop a desire or develop a consciousness for one can perform such activities not only is it necessary to study literatures such as the Bhagavad-gītā which we read tonight but it’s also important to engage in the meditation, the chanting of the mantras. So, then our consciousness is gradually focused, awakened, enlightened not just in a theoretical manner. Theoretically we can read the books, we can get the concepts, we can conceptualize everything but to practically understand and feel it as a personal realization that we’re spirit soul, we’re living force in the body, that we’re eternal, that we’re not material, we’re spiritual. To be able to actually be above the mind. To be aloof from the mental changes. To be free from depression and anxiety. There’s a need to have practical realization. The realization comes very quickly by this process of mantra yoga. This in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it mentions the history about Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Haridāsa Ṭhākura is the nāmācārya or the spiritual master of the holy name. As the spiritual master of the holy name he would go everywhere and he would chant:

hare kṛṣṇa, hare kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, hare hare
hare rāma, hare rāma, rāma rāma, hare hare

And he would instruct people about the glories of chanting this mantra. Is anyone here who doesn’t know what a mantra is? Don’t have to be shy, others see thank you. Mantra is a Sanskrit word, it’s a combination of two words “maun” and “tra.” “Maun” means the mind and “tra” means tran or deliver or liberate. So, mantra is the vibration which liberates the mind. There were silent meditations that were performed in previous ages. Those meditations are considered not intense enough to cure us from the material disturbances and obstacles that face our... that stand before us, our spiritual progress. There were other forms of, other paths also. Other paths are good but just being a good path is not enough. There’s a funny example given by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That once a man went to the druggist and he asked that please give me a good medicine. The druggist said all my medicine is good.

DRUGGIST: What’s wrong with you?

MAN: Don’t ask me any personal questions, just give me a good medicine.

DRUGGIST: Listen, I got all kinds of medicine. I have medicine for Stomach ache, headache, skin rub. What do you want? What’s wrong with you? You got a rash? You got a headache? What’s...what’s your problem?

MAN: I just want a good medicine! Give me one good medicine!

DRUGGIST: So, what are you crazy or something!” (laughter) What kind of  Medicine do you want?

MAN: Good medicine!

DRUGGIST: Get out of here!

That’s like someone saying I want good religion. I want good spiritual process. It’s only all spiritual process is good; it doesn’t say anything bad except for someone that narrow minded. The question is what is the specific need that a person has. What are the particular obstacles standing in their path? What particular process would be effective for the time and place we’re existing in and living in today. The Kṛṣṇa conscious movement doesn’t say it’s the only way. And there’s no other way. There is many ways. But the other ways may not be able to cure a person from the particular material diseases they’re suffering. Or may not be able to reach to bring a person to the desired goal within a short enough period of time, that has to be analysed. The Kṛṣṇa conscious process of bhakti-yoga is designed for this age to bring us within the shortest possible time to the desired objective. So, the chanting of a mantra, of a spiritual vibration and hearing that mantra and listening to that and focusing the consciousness on the vibration is a more powerful form of meditation then silent meditation. And at this time in the world where people are generally disturbed, where people are not very peaceful, they’re not very patient. There are many difficulties that we’re facing. People have stress. Maybe a hundred years ago they didn’t have stress. But now there’s plenty of stress, there’s plenty of anxiety. Therefore, we need something that immediately a person can be able to tune into and get some immediate energy within a short period of time. To do a silent meditation you have to stop all thoughts, do breathing exercises, be calm, let your mind be very peaceful. This is good exercise but it is [27:29] once they, many different meditators have come to me and say master of yoga and told me after the mediation when I again go out to my job, I go out into the street again I get disturbed. What is the solution? Because the silent forms of meditation are not intense enough to give us that residual effect, that lasting benefit that we can stop the meditation and then go into our daily activities and remain in equilibrium. Therefore, a process is been given, mantra-yoga. Chanting the name of Kṛṣṇa or chanting this mantra references, this I don’t know if you have it written anywhere? In a few temples they have it.

hare kṛṣṇa, hare kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, hare hare
hare rāma, hare rāma, rāma rāma, hare hare

This mantra is three words which form a seed of the mantra - hare, kṛṣṇa, and rāma. They’re arranged into sixteen words. There’s many mantras, each mantra has a particular purpose. They can be used at particular times, but most mantras known as Harināma mantras. The mantras, names of Kṛṣṇa are universal in their application. Anyone at any time they can chant this mantra. Not only here at a temple or a cultural institute but while walking on the street, while waiting in the bus line, while driving in a car, while walking in the park, overlooking the bay. If you feel shy you can chant in your bedroom or in your closet or under your bed. (laughter) There are no hard and fast rules, you can chant from the top of a cliff, just don’t jump. (laughter) And you can shout it out and hear the echoes, there’s no hard and fast rule, that in this time and at this place. I know some people they can’t get to sleep at night, they’re taking sleeping pills and when they’re laying down they’re just chanting, “hare kṛṣṇa, hare kṛṣṇa” and they go to sleep. They find… they can just go to sleep. (laughter) You can do more than that but some people that’s the time they chant. Someone takes advantage of the vibration and chants it more consciously with more attention you’ll get more effect. But there’s no hard and fast rule that this time you cannot chant. Any time a person can chant.

So, this great saint known as Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was traveling all over India especially in eastern India. One time he visited one priest known as Bhāgavata Ācārya. And he was the personal guru and priest of Hiraṇya and Govardhana Majumdār, who were two landlords in Bengal. They were fabulously rich. They paid taxes one million two hundred thousand gold coins in a year. You know what a gold coin costs today. When they pay one million two hundred thousand in taxes, that’s how rich they were. So, this Bhāgavata Ācārya was their priest and Haridāsa Ṭhākura came as their guest. So, although these people were very rich, they also very religious. And every evening they would have a meeting with all different priests and different gentleman from their village and their place. And they would discuss topics of yoga, self-realization. Had a meeting like this every night, different speakers, different guests sometimes informal, sometimes more formal. And at this time Bhāgavata Ācārya brought Haridāsa Ṭhākura to that assembly. And Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was requested to give an explanation of the potency of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Someone said well by chanting this mantra Hare Kṛṣṇa I know that you can get all material benediction, you can get all kind of material good fortune. Someone else said yes we have heard that you can achieve liberation and salvation by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra this is mentioned in the Vedas.

So, you’re the expert, kindly tell us more about it. In other words, they wanted to show off they know a little something. Then Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he explained that no there’s much more to it. You can certainly get material good fortune by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can get liberation, but these are by-products. He said that’s not the main thing, the main benefit of chanting is one can be totally transferred under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, they can develop your love for Kṛṣṇa by which naturally their mind, their consciousness will go to Kṛṣṇa, in this way they are automatically above the material world in such a way that they cannot fall down again. Actually, even by carelessly chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa a person can achieve a salvation or liberation from material action and reaction. While he was explaining this there was one young man there who was a tax collector, chief tax collector for these two landlords. He didn’t know about this science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is studied some other yoga. He is studied hatha yoga, he knew about haṭha-yoga. He knew that to achieve liberation took many births. You have to do breathing exercises, you have to go through many births, you wouldn’t be able to achieve it in one birth. It would take many births. So here he was hearing for the first time that if you chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, the great mantra of deliverance you could get delivered even by carelessly chanting, by accidentally chanting. That there was a far greater objective of developing love for the Personality of Godhead and that... that could come from chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, this was even more important than achieving salvation or liberation from material bondage. He stood up, he became very intolerant, and he started to chastise Haridāsa Ṭhākura. How can you say this? And how can you respectable gentlemen listen to this fanaticism? He’s simply saying by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa one can achieve liberation. When it takes great yogīs, great transcendentalists hundreds possibly thousands of births of practicing self-realization and yoga to achieve liberation. To achieve brahma nirvāṇa, to merge into the light, the unlimited ocean of light. And he’s saying you can achieve that same destination by carelessly chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. How can you tolerate this? Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he gave so many references, so many examples. You see actually in the Vedas there are many examples of persons who have achieved success.

There’s the history of Vālmīki. Vālmīki was the writer of the Rāmāyaṇa. Now in France, oh they’re doing the Mahābhārata. But yeah that’s, but in France they’re doing the Mahābhārata but. Has anyone done the Rāmāyaṇa? Contemporary drama, they do the Mahābhārata. Well, the Rāmāyaṇa is an epic like the Mahābhārata which is done in France which is now being done, going to be done I think in New York by quite a famous drama troupe. The Rāmāyaṇa pre-dates the Mahābhārata. It’s the history of Lord Rāma and the first writer of the Rāmāyaṇa, the original and the most authorized writer is Vālmīki, the great self-realized soul. But Vālmīki, he has a previous history. He wasn’t always Vālmīki, before he was Vālmīki he was known as Dāśu-Ratnākara. Dāśu means thief, ratna means jewel and kara means one who takes jewels by... Ratnākara one who steals jewels. He was a jewel thief. He used to rob people and take their jewels, diamonds, rings, sometime murder them. That was his profession but as it happened once, one of our great spiritual masters, his picture is if you look on all these books, the second row, the second book from the left, the picture of his master sitting on a seat. His name is Nārada Muni. The higher seat. Nārada Muni is one of the original spiritual masters in the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. He has another long history which we do not have time to go into now. But this Nārada Muni he was travelling and as the will of fate, this thief approached him. Of course, he didn’t have anything, he just had a musical instrument that he would sing Hare Kṛṣṇa with. Didn’t have any money, didn’t have anything else but his cloth and that instrument. But the thief said I want you to give me whatever you have. So, he did have a lot of spiritual knowledge. So, he took compassion on the thief and thought I’ll give him some spiritual knowledge. But the thief of course he wanted to know if he had any jewel, gold, diamond, something like that. But of course, Nārada Muni didn’t have any of those things. But so he started to ask the thief questions. Who are you? He said, “I am Dāśu-Ratnākara, the thief Ratnākara. I rob so many people here, I’m the most famous thief”. He was very proud. So I’m also going to steal from you. So, but who are you stealing for? Wife, I have children, I have old parents... stealing for them. Who is sharing their karma with you? You steal so you take people’s belonging, sometime you stab them, sometimes you kill them. That means in the future you will also suffer like that. People will steal from you, they will stab you, they’ll take from you so the law of karma. So, who is sharing their karma with you? Well of course my wife, my children and my old parents they will share with me. Are you sure about it? Of course! I am giving everything to them. Why wouldn’t they take it? Why don’t you go and ask them? I won’t go away; I’ll wait for you. You find out who’s sharing their karma. Who you are stealing for? Who is sharing their karma with you

So, then Dāśu-Ratnākara he went back to his cave hideaway to find out who is going to share the karma with him so first he went to his old mother and father, retired. He said I met one saintly person he said that for all the stealing and killing that I’m doing I have to suffer karmic reactions and I just wanted to know that since I’m doing everything for you, I’m bringing all the wealth to you, I’m not, I’m giving everything for you. You take a portion of that sinful or the bad karmic reaction for everything that I’m doing. The mother and father looked at each other, says now we’re very old. We’re going to leave our body very soon, again if we take these karmas our next birth will be very bad. You see we tried to train you up to be a good boy, but you turned out this way. Now we’re old and retired and ready to leave our body and take a new birth, we cannot take these karma reactions, now it will be very bad for us. You don’t want to send us to some hellish condition. You won’t want to take any of the reactions from my stealing? Now we’re very sorry it’s not possible for us. Don’t push these things on us now in our old age. He was very a disturbed by this. He’d been selflessly giving to his parents but they’re not reciprocating, then he went to his children.

My dear boy and girl, I’m stealing and killing and robbing for you. I’m giving you everything, I’m bringing it here so you can have a comfortable life. Surely you will take a portion of that karma reaction. We didn’t ask to be your children. We were born in your family; it was beyond our control. We’re dependent upon you, why should we be responsible. As children you can feed us, you can plough the field or get a job anyway you chose to be a thief and a murderer. That’s your choice. Why do you want to give us we’re just at the beginning of our life? If we start with all this karma on our head our whole future will be very dark. We can’t take responsibility for what our father does. You’re not under our control, we’re dependent upon you.

Of course, he had his wife, his life partner, surely she will take the karma. So, he went to her and requested my dear wife kindly, I met this one saintly man he told me that for all the activities, the killing, the murder all I’m doing, I’m bringing you all the wealth, the diamonds, the jewels I’m giving you so many things. For all the activities I am doing I have to take some karma reactions and some little karmas are there. And you’re my beloved, my dear most, the light of my life. You will kindly of course share with me the little fruits of my activities, the reactions. What do you mean I’m living here in a cave! I got no social life. (laughter) I don’t get any decent sarees and dresses. What is the use of having a diamond bangle if you don’t have a new dress? I’m always here taking care of your children, cooking your food. I’m doing everything for you, practically I’m here living as a recluse. Hiding away because of your profession and now you want me to take the reactions also. For your...for your sinful karmic activities. This is impossible, how do you expect that I could do that. As a wife I’m taking care of your household. So, what occupation you do I’m not responsible for that. No, I’m sorry I can’t take any karmic reactions. So, then he was shocked, no one will take any karmic reactions. Neither his parents, neither his children, nor his wife.

He went back to Nārada Muni, he fell down and said, “save me!” You’re right! No one is gonna take any of that! I’m doing everything thinking it’s all for them but they won’t take any share of it. How do I get saved from these karmas? Everything will come down on my head. So, then he said you should chant the name, chant the mantra, chant the name of God. Oh, I couldn’t do something like that. (laughter) I never, I never went to any temple, or church and I don’t...(of course there is no church). I never went to any temple or anything I don’t know I can’t do anything like that. So Nārada Muni thought for a moment then he told him oh you can chant the name, you can chant murder. That I can chant. I’ve been doing that quite a bit. (laughter) So in Sanskrit the name for murder or kill is mārā. Also beat, beat someone, mār do. So, in Sanskrit that comes as mārā. Mārā, mārā. So he said can you chant that name. That I can chant. Murder, murder, mārā mārā mārā. That I can chant, that I am habituated to that one. That won’t be hard for me at all. If I chant that I’ll get freed from all karmas. Yes. Ok. So then he started to chant mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā mārā. By chanting mārā mārā after the first syllable comes as rāmā rāmā rāmā rāmā rāmā.

Just as we chant:

hare kṛṣṇa, hare kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, hare hare
hare rāma, hare rāma, rāma rāma, hare hare

The name of Kṛṣṇa is three times more powerful than the name of Rāmā. But Rāmā is also absolutely powerful.

So, since he wouldn’t chant anything else but murder and that was a easy word to make for murder, in Sanskrit mārā mārā after mārā mārā it comes rāmā. So, this way he tricked him to chant the name of God even though he didn’t know it was the name of God or a mantra or a vibration that was spiritual. By chanting he became so free from karmic reactions he became a great saint. He could visualize the future and the past, everything. And therefore, he became known as Vālmīki Muni. Muni is like a great ṛsi or a great sage. And he became a famous historian who could predict the incarnation of Lord Rāmacandra. He wrote this vedic scripture known as the Rāmayana, simply by chanting this mantra so then that was thousands of years ago that was not that it’s a new process. That was certainly not a conscious chanting. He achieved liberation from all the karmas. He not only achieved liberation, he achieved a very exalted position of self-realization, of love for the Personality of Godhead. But he was chanting, in his mind he started off chanting “murder, murder, murder.” That’s what he was thinking but the vibration was mārā mārā mārā mārā which came out rāmā rāmā. The vibration itself had the power even though he didn’t have the power.

One day I was in Madras in India, there in Madras people are very, many people read the Bhagavad-gītā very intricately. One man came up to me just on the street I was going with some group of devotees for one program. Suddenly one person came up to me, one gentleman and he said, “every religion demands blind faith, dogmatic faith. Is there no religion that does not require any faith?” He said just like that, this is India you see right on the street so and asked the question like that. So, I said yes, there’s no problem. There’s process of bhakti yoga, the process of devotional yoga of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness doesn’t require faith. Even without faith you can practice it and you can still achieve results. Without knowing even a person can achieve results. Just like the Sage Vālmīki by chanting the word mārā mārā he wasn’t thinking in his mind that he is chanting the name of Rāmā or a mantra. He’s just thinking he’s chanting the word mārā or murder in Sanskrit. But because the vibration, even without any predetermined understanding of what he’s doing, without some kind of dogmatic understanding or anything. Simply by following the process he achieved success. That gentlemen, oh yes. So then if you practice the principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you read the books and understand it’s very good for you. But even if you know practice it without understanding you will still get a benefit. You still get it, if you take a medicine if you know, you read in the medical dictionary: What is the medicine? What is it made of? How is it manufactured? What are it’s effects? What are its side effects? You can know all of that. Whether you know it or not if you take a good medicine it’s going to have an effect. Whether you read the instructions on the bottle or not when you put it in your mouth and digest it, it’s going to affect your body. Because it’s real. This chanting of the mantra:

hare kṛṣṇa, hare kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa, hare hare
hare rāma, hare rāma, rāma rāma, hare hare

Is not dependent on a person even knowing what it means or knowing anything about it. If they’ll chant it they will get effect. But if a person wants to know or if they know more about it, if they have more knowledge then they will have more effect because they’ll know how to take it properly. Just like if you know how to take a medicine, take it after eating or before eating or take it on an empty stomach. Take it with water or with milk, in conjunction with other medicines. It may have more quick action. But the medicine will have effect. Similarly, these mantras they’re not simply some kind of you have to have blind faith and you have to believe in it. Whether you believe or not if you do it, it will have an effect. That’s our very humble, take it as a challenge or take it as an offer. Anyone practices the system they will get some effect. It’s a guarantee. Not only here, whether it’s in Russia, whether it’s in America, whether it’s in China, whether it’s in uh Africa, whether in Australasia, wherever it is if we found any person if they chant the mantra, listen to the vibration for a period of even one or two months. Sometimes even the first day they can get an experience. But if they do it regularly for say half hour, hour a day, say minimum half hour, fifteen minutes to a half hour even. We find that people get tremendous results. They can feel the change in their consciousness, they can feel the change in their outlook on life. Sublime things happen. Of course, we don’t say that you should, people should just do it blindly and not know what it means and not know it. We have so much literatures to teach but it’s not dependent even on that. So therefore, I was asking, answering that gentleman’s question no you’re not dependent on some blind faith. You just have to believe and live like that and at the end of life you hope you get something. You can experience immediately.

So that Vālmīki he was chanting the mantra, he experienced it immediately so coming back to the original story where that one young tax collector of the two rich lords who had challenged Haridāsa Ṭhākura, the spiritual master of the Holy name in front of all the assembly. That how is it that you’re all listening to this sentimentalist say that by chanting the mantra, this spiritual vibration Hare Kṛṣṇa you can achieve the same result that normally it takes yogis who meditate in the Himalaya mountains, fasting and doing tremendous penances and austerities. That a person even living in a material life, living in the material world that by chanting this mantra he could achieve liberation so easily. How can you accept that? So, then Haridāsa Ṭhākura giving these different examples from the Vedas. There are so many examples, there are so many evidences which prove that yes even if you unconsciously chant the names, the mantra of Hari, you can get this effect. That, that young man he could not accept. His name was Gopāla Chakrāvarti, he was a brāhmaṇa but he didn’t know about the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he knew about science of hatha yoga, knew of other yogas. He didn’t know about this yoga. This yoga, there are many yogas in India so not every person knows all the yogas but this is considered the topmost of all yogas. Kṛṣṇa glorifies this yoga in the Bhagavad-gītā when Arjuna asks him there are so many yogas. Which yoga is more effective? Then He said:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yukta-tamo mataḥ

That of all the various yogis my personal opinion is that yogi who is connected to Me through bhajana, through chanting My names, through worships, through devotional service. Sa vai, amongst all of the yogīs yuktātmā he is more intimately connected with the Absolute Truth, with Me than all the others. That was Kṛṣṇa’s opinion. Many people they don’t know that, they just know about one or two yogas and they think this is everything. They don’t know that which yoga is more effective under which circumstance or which yoga is the most effective. To practice devotional yoga completely sometimes requires a person to be very sincere and to actually give up the mind, give up the ego. And some people they’re not able to do that, they want to remain in their own present frame of mind. They don’t want to have their mind change at all from their own present a conditioned state they want to, from their egoistic state without giving up their ego they want to feel they’re doing it. So they, for them this type of mechanical yogas like exercises and so on these are recommended but for someone who is more intelligent who is able to see that to get a rapid change one has to offer even the egoistic mentality and become fully absorbed in spiritual thought. And change one’s life according to the necessity of avoiding different karmas. Maybe externally there’s no change but at least a change in consciousness. And adding some meditations and chanting and so on. This is difficult for people who are very egoistic but for someone who is a little more intelligent, little more flexible, little more broad-minded they may find no this is amore, a little more active, they can’t just sit in one place and do exercises all the time. They prefer to do an active meditation which they can perform while leading their ordinary life.

One requires a change of consciousness; you can remain externally the same type of life but internally you change the consciousness. The other physical yoga they don’t change their consciousness but they change their physical situation by doing exercises, by doing meditation and so on. So, if you change the consciousness, that’s more essential, that’s more effective. So, this particular Gopāl Chakrāvarti he didn’t know about devotional yoga, it’s not unusual even in India there are some who don’t know about it. The devotional yogis they know all the yogas because Krsna discusses all the yogas. That they all have the same objective. Someone who thinks this yoga and that yoga have a different objective doesn’t know anything about yoga. Every yoga is leading one to the Absolute Truth. Simply that some yogas are suitable for one person and some will get you there with less trouble and some will more quickly. So, this devotional yoga is the most fast acting. But this, he didn’t know about it so he started to chastise. How is it possible? How is it possible? How is it not possible? That’s what Haridāsa Ṭhākura said. It’s possible there are so many examples of it, it’s effectiveness, it works. Then he became so angry then he started to chastise Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Finally all the people stood up and started to chastise that Gopāl Chakrāvarti. What are you doing insulting our guest, what do you know? They requested Haridāsa Ṭhākura please forgive him he doesn’t know what he’s doing. He fired him from his job. Haridāsa Ṭhākura said I don’t take any offense he obviously doesn’t know about the science of devotional service. Like this sometimes the great preachers they have to face with people who are proud of a little knowledge but they don’t actually know whole the broad spectrum of Vedic knowledge. How many types of paths or how many different methods? So Haridāsa Ṭhākura then he went on and he started to live in a cave. Where he was just chanting and in the cave one snake came, big python. He would just stay be there chanting and different villagers would come to see him, different people and they’d take instruction from him. But they’d see this huge snake by … know just right down on the other side of the cave and the smell. They all get a little frightened. How can you stay here there is a big snake! He said it’s not bothering me.

hare kṛṣṇa hare kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare

hare rāma hare rāma rāma rāma hare hare

He is chanting. But everybody would be so frightened, how can you stay here the snake might eat you or something. Haridāsa Ṭhākura he was so advanced that he knew that he was being protected so there was nothing to fear. But because people were being so disturbed, they couldn’t come to see him. So, he decided alright I’ll leave. Soon as he decided to leave the snake crawled out of the cave and left. Because in everyone’s heart the Supreme Person, God, the Personality of Godhead is present in everyone’s heart normally he’s just a witness, but if he wants, He can give us guidance, he can give us intelligence. Sometimes we know that as the conscience. You shouldn’t do that; you should do it. He’s there to give us help if we want but we’re not always able to recognize that it’s him giving us. Sometimes it’s our mind, sometimes it’s Him. See even in the snake He’s also present so when Haridāsa Ṭhākura wanted to leave He just told the snake alright you go. Don’t disturb the devotee.

So, this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is very sublime. Actually, I should give time now for everyone to ask questions, to ask some questions and for those that have to go early they can have the feast, refreshments. But just in conclusion, this science is actually a science of the self. What is life? We know life in a material western culture in a very superficial way. We see the bodies; we see the chemicals but what makes everything run? Where does everything come from? What is the ultimate purpose of life? These basic questions we don’t always know, we don’t always know the answers. Modern science hasn’t given us a clue but the Vedas this is the first thing they deal with. They give some overview this is um there’s atomic energy in the Sanskrit codes it describes this atomic energy. There’s these planets in the universe. There’s, this is time. This is birth. This is light. Even in the 3rd canto Bhāgavatam you’ll find a detailed description of how the soul enters at the time of conception. How the sperm and the ovum combine together. How after one day what is the description of the size and the shape, after one week, after two weeks, after three weeks, after a month. How the embryo develops after two months, three months, every month by month. When the hands start to develop, when the different organs start to develop and at the seventh month that the child in the womb develops consciousness. These things are...they didn’t do autopsies or or or dissect people or studied the aborted foetuses or. This was, they could know this by um very great spiritual vision. But all these things are given by all these great sages how they know. How this was revealed to them, that’s another long discussion. But the fact is that these basic material truths which we are very proud of knowing now were already known thousands of years ago but they consider, these are basic things a person should know. Then I’ll get to the real business how to get liberated from material life, how to become completely happy and satisfied knowing one’s relationship with the world, with each other, with the Supreme Lord. And then how to return back out of this world to the spiritual sky. That is the real business of human beings. Not to simply make the world based on competition without any foresight to the future after this life. Simply competing until the moment, we die how to survive. That is like a jungle. So, civilization according to Vedic definition is where there is a facility for people to work, to get adequate food, clothing, shelter. And simultaneously to do, able to perform activities to be able cultivate a culture of self-realization knowing who they are and knowing how to get liberated from the material condition.

So, we’re very grateful that you’re coming to this Hare Kṛṣṇa Center of Culture and you’re cultivating this spiritual science. And we hope that you will take advantage of the many books which have been published by the Founder-Ācārya Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda on the subject. He had great personal endeavour at the age of 70. He left India in 1965, and came here to Australia, to Sydney and some occasions went to Melbourne, went all over the world fourteen times spreading this message for twelve years. Leaving a legacy of spiritual wisdom which was before this, was not available in the west. So, you’re very fortunate to have this centre here, we hope that you take advantage of it and try to practice and understand these principles of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. We have, we want actually that this should be a training centre to learn the principles and practice in their own homes. So that they can achieve perfection at home. There’s someone who wants to serve others and try to help society at large, they can contribute some time or energy. In some of our joint programs, or if they like even have some of the people some of the dedicated people they live here. You see them sometimes chanting on the street, they are dedicated themselves to helping others in this. Giving spiritual knowledge to others. But the principle is that we want society at large to take advantage of these principles and practice in their own homes. So, we thank you very much for coming and making this Cultural Centre a success and I’m very happy to be here in Sydney for the second time in my life. The first time that I gave a program here in this temple. I went once to King’s Cross last September for the first time I was just there for one day. So I...it’s too loud (inaudible)1.09.33 it’s a...I find the people here very nice and I think that is a very suitable place for people to practice these principles of bhakti yoga. So, if there are any questions at this time I’ll be very happy at this time to try to answer your questions. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Aur kuch prashana hai? Bol sakta hai. (HH Jayapatākā Swami speaking in Hindi)

Yes.

Question from audience. [inaudible 01:10:08]

Sometimes children don’t. Parents give the children the medicine inside sugar candy or honey and they say this is just a sweet. The child doesn’t know what it is. Doesn’t even know it took the medicine but he gets the effect. The...it’s it’s a material example. If you do have conscious knowledge. What the effect of chanting is and you know and you learn different aspects of the process certainly you can make more advancement. You can get better results then if you do unconsciously. Even unconsciously one can achieve liberation. But there are other things higher than liberation you can achieve if you do it consciously. So, we’re not proposing that people should only unconsciously do it. The fact, the point I was making is a point in fact. That if a person does chant even without knowing all the things about it still they can feel peace of mind, they can feel happiness. In fact, when Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda went to America in 1965 he didn’t tell people in detail what the chanting was all about he just told them a little overview and got everyone to sing with him and after singing and dancing in Tompkins Square Park in the east side of New York City. After feeling some happiness then the young people started to ask what the chanting was all about. Because in this age people want results. If they get results then they are interested in practice. Just to do, just to do something without any results not very attractive to people.

Question from audience [inaudible 01:12:15]

We don’t recommend, we recommend that before a person takes initiation or any kind of formal commitment in the Kṛṣṇa Conscious Movement that they practice it even for one year or more and be thoroughly acquainted with everything about it, study it, become convinced and then if they like what they’re, if they feel faith and then to take some personal commitment otherwise anyone is welcome to come and participate but they don’t have to take any kind of formal.

Question/comment from audience [inaudible 01:12:57]

Person does isn’t valid, has no ‘eh but the persons may talk it up in such a way that people start to believe in it may do it. Then after a period of time they look back and see is there any change. There’s no change but because it’s such a hype they start to believe in it and do it. So, just kind to be mad.. to be against intellectual pursuit or something but I was bringing the point out that even if a person doesn’t know anything even a small child if they practice it they get an effect. Therefore, I was raising this as a point that this process works. It’s not just a theoretical thing. Why it works we’ve got ninety books there. It’s not that we’re not trying to tell people don’t be intellectual or don’t study. We have, we have so many books that if you can read those books and study them in depth you can be a PhD and more in this science of self-realization and we certainly invite you to be most happy not only you but everyone if they will study and go deep into this philosophy. And certainly that is the most intelligent way of doing it. But the point is that the process works. That was the basis that it works, it works because its a time, why it works is why we have so many books to explain. But it does work because of all the reasons given in all those different books. And if you practice it even while you’re studying, even while you’re intellectually checking the things out you’ll find that your own consciousness will be broadened. To be able to go more deeply into the subject matter. Because this is a matter which simply by intellectual academic type of study alone is difficult to penetrate very deep into it. Intellectually we can go a certain degree just like if you try to intellectually describe what does a fruit tastes like. What does a mango taste like? Intellectually let’s discuss now what a mango tastes like. You can say it’s sweet. There are many things that are sweet. You can, but how can you transfer the experience of eating a apple or mango to another person by words. You can discuss the vitamins in a mango, it’s got vitamin C and D and A or you can say so many things but if you wanna ultimately give another person experience what a mango tastes like. It’s very difficult, practically impossible unless you give a person a mango and he tastes it. So simultaneously with all of the information that is there; there’s also the practical meditation, the practical action which gives you a direct experience. And we also trying to say that this is very important part that people should experience something, it shouldn’t simply be intellectual, there shall also be intellectual not that we turn off our intellect or our mind. But it should... in addition to the intellect simultaneously there should also be experience. So that you have something more than just the mental thought train to base your beliefs or your understanding on if its reinforced by practical experience. Just like you learn something in science and they go into a lab and they experiment. So we’re also trying to encourage that people should simultaneously with understanding the philosophical aspect if they have a little personal experience. Just like a picture is worth a thousand words, a little personal experience is worth thousands of pictures.

Just like there’s a little funny story that one Englishman he had gone to India and he had...telling his friends when he was in India, he ate a jackfruit, kathal. I think there are some people here from India they know the jackfruit. He was explaining how this is a very good fruit. I don’t know in Australia do they have jackfruit? Yeah. It comes here? Up north, it’s a big fruit like that inside yellow...huh, chewy, fibrous. So, then his in England they don’t have it. So, he was explaining to his friends about jackfruit. So what does it taste like? So, then he how is he supposed to describe what it tastes like so then he said well it’s juicy and sweet so and it’s fibrous. So, then he said well he gave the example there’s if you take an old man with a big beard and if you dip the beard into some sugar juice and then you suck that juice from the beard that’s what a jackfruit tastes like. (laughter) Obviously it doesn’t exactly, description doesn’t exactly make it but that’s why we get difficulty in trying to connecting intellectual side with experience so side by side that’s why before we give our classes, we have a little chanting session. Even sometimes when there’s time afterwards. That people by a combination of practical experience and intellectual study they’ll be able to get a more profound understanding of what we’re discussing. But maybe I didn’t express myself perfectly in that I was stressing so much on the one side why that is a good point. We appreciate that. Before people do something, they should certainly be convinced about it that’s why we spending so much effort to present these different literatures and to answer people’s questions.

Any other questions? Yes.

Question from audience [inaudible 01:19:43]

Mahārāja can you explain the chanting..

One can chant the name of Kṛṣṇa, the mantras of Kṛṣṇa many times for a long time if one commits certain basic errors known as aparadhas the full effect of the chanting will be delayed. Every morning we sing bahu janme koriya (inaudible 01:20:49) so you’re all acquainted with that point. If you chant the name of Lord Caitanya:

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

He doesn’t...that mantra doesn’t have those same restrictions or same shortcoming of exact word but it doesn’t have that feature that if even if you make those basic mistakes still it will have effect. So, to receive the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa as well as the other mantra Sri Kṛṣṇa Caitanya to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of the representatives of Lord Caitanya one finds that it has much more rapid effect. For instance in India one gentleman came up to me and said for twenty-six years I’ve been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa but I’m not feeling and I feel peace of mind and all that but I don’t feel what you people are feeling I see you dancing. I got a profound feeling from the devotee but I’m not getting that that degree of feeling. I don’t get that type of profound experience. What’s wrong?

So then I studied his lifestyle and gave some advice. Then I said that before chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. You chant so many times this mantra:

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

Because we’re making basic mistakes which are impeding your experience of the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then after a month or so I came back to that place and all of a sudden this man came up to me and he was grabbing my feet. And he was saying you know, “what you given me!” and he was like so emotional he said you know. No anyways he went into this whole thing how by since I gave him that pañca-tattva mantra, Caitanya mantra by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa he was getting such a ecstatic experience. He was like, he said twenty-six years I haven’t experienced anything like that. So it’s important to have a bonafide spiritual master, it’s important to follow the process because it’s like our friend here mentioned. If you go to a doctor and you take a medicine sometime it doesn’t you may not immediately see the result. Then you go back to the doctor and say what happened I don’t feel the effect. And so then the doctor may change your diet and he may increase your dose and you know he may do something so you need an operation or whatever. So similarly one needs a spiritual master whose bonafide and this way then also its important to chant in association. So, we recommend that people find bonafide spiritual masters and learn the chanting process from someone coming in the line from Lord Caitanya and Lord Caitanya’s pure representative is Bhaktivedanta Swami so someone representing him would be the most effective person. Because Lord Caitanya had predicted that this chanting would spread throughout the entire world to every town and village. And the person to do that was Bhaktivedanta Swami so actually he was thereby proven to be the most authorized representative. But in India many people chant Hare Kṛṣṇa it’s not that...I mean thousands of people chant not only the Kṛṣṇa Conscious movement. You can go to South India in Ayyappa temples they’re chanting. You’ll find that in Ayodhya and different places, they in some places they chant Hare Rāma first some places they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the followers of Lord Caitanya chant Hare Kṛṣṇa first. But throughout India, Tukārām different places they all people chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in demigod temples they will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma. So, it’s not that we don’t have a monopoly on this chant but those who follow this specific means of chanting from Lord Caitanya they get very quick results and you can see that they have so much more life. So, we recommend that when you get a mantra it’s important to get the mantra from a bonafide spiritual line has more effect but if someone chants the mantra they also benefit. Even if they’re not getting it from us still, they’ll benefit by chanting. But may they won’t get the...we could help them more that’s our possibility I don’t know who the...but it’d be nice if they would come and chant. If people will say that anyway that’s enough of that question. Generally speaking in India most of the people respect Kṛṣṇa. It’s a national holiday when Kṛṣṇa’s born. So naturally they’ll chant different names of Kṛṣṇa, different mantras of Kṛṣṇa. But still ultimately one needs to have a bonafide spiritual master and actually take up the process very seriously. Some people are there they don’t take it very seriously so but. Therefore their progress will also be a little slow. But anyone who chants we respect them they’re good people.

 Any other questions? Yes.

Question from audience (inaudible 01:27:24)

If you know the secret tell me. (laughter) Sometimes one can meet someone it may be almost by accident or by great fortune. It can also be previous activity performed in a previous birth. Prabhupada was taken, our spiritual master was taken to his spiritual master, he didn’t want to go see him. Because he had seen so many spiritual people who were not sincere or hypocrites. He just thought they were all like that. He didn’t want to see anyone else but his friend said no come and see this one and then he met Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura and he was impressed that no here’s a really sincere person. Here’s a very beautiful person someone who is for real. So ultimately, we don’t know what karmas or what previous births people had. We know that there are some people that have uncompleted spiritual lives and they’re naturally brought to come again to get another opportunity to take up again in their spiritual life. There’s some people who have already from previous lives spiritual credits to their account. Then there are also persons who may not have such a spiritual bank balance. But somehow by the goodwill of a devotee someone takes compassion on them or out of like a merciful attitude. Takes time to explain the thing to the person to invite them to come to. Although they are not so interested but somehow they come and by association gradually they become more interested and purified. Ultimately this is beyond our ability to see the background. If there’s any formula you can tell us but you got every person’s an individual and each person has own history. Has a previous births and unless you go into the previous births and see what a person was before. And that’s not possible for ordinary persons to do that.

We’d like to thank J Jayapatākā Mahārāja (inaudible 01:30:39) . Jayapatākā Mahārāja ki jaya! (clapping)