19870708 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 4.12.25

The following is a class given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami on July 8th 1987 in Ipoh, Malaysia The class begins with a reading from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 4th canto, chapter 12, text 25.

sudurjayaṁ viṣṇu-padaṁ jitaṁ tvayā
yat sūrayo ’prāpya vicakṣate param
ātiṣṭha tac candra-divākarādayo
graharkṣa-tārāḥ pariyanti dakṣiṇam

Translation: To achieve Viṣṇuloka is very difficult, but by your austerity you have conquered. Even the great ṛṣis and demigods cannot achieve this position. Simply to see the supreme abode [the Viṣṇu planet], the sun and moon and all the other planets, stars, lunar mansions and solar systems are circumambulating it. Now please come; you are welcome to go there.

This invitation is given by the representatives of Viṣṇu who have come to take Dhruva Mahārāja at the end of his life back to home, back to godhead.

Prabhupād in this regard gives the Purport:

Even in this material world the so-called scientists, philosophers and mental speculators strive to merge into the spiritual sky, but they can never go there. But a devotee, by executing devotional service, not only realizes what the spiritual world actually is, but factually goes there to live an eternal life of bliss and knowledge. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so potent that by adopting these principles of life and developing love of God one can very easily go back home, back to Godhead. Here the practical example is the case of Dhruva Mahārāja. While the scientist and philosopher go to the moon but are disappointed in their attempts to stay there and live, the devotee makes an easy journey to other planets and ultimately goes back to Godhead. Devotees have no interest in seeing other planets, but while going back to Godhead they see all of them as passing phases, just as one who is going to a distant place passes through many small stations.

Thus end the Bhaktivedānta Swami Purport text 25, chapter 12, canto 4, “In the matter of Dhruva Mahārāja goes back to Godhead”.

Jayapatākā Swami: Every human being is born in this world to live some period of time, to produce some by-products and eventually we have to leave this material world, or at least we have to leave this body. Normally when we leave the body again we take rebirth according to our desires, according to our karmas. We achieve a suitable birth in a suitable family. In the modern world people consider this present life to be the all-important life; they don’t worry about their future life in most cases. And this is the shortcoming of the modern world.

Someone may become a Prime minister, or some very infl..,[Not Clear – 00:04:27, important?] President of some country in this lifetime. He doesn’t worry what sinful activities he is performing, what unscrupulous activities is he performing and in the future life that although in the previous life he may have been a Prime minister or a President, he may even become an animal or any type of very unfortunate birth. They don’t worry for that. They live as if there is no tomorrow. This is the shortcoming of the modern world.

The Vedic civilization is unique because particularly the codes of ethics, the morals, and the goal of life are all spiritually oriented with an understanding that we are a combination of body, mind and spirit. And therefore the total individual is taken into consideration, not simply the body which is a temporary situation of our life. Not even simply the mind which is always subject to change and is also not the absolute platform but all the three- body, mind and the spirit. The soul is the actual person, the actual self which is in the body, which is making the body alive. Without the presence of soul there is no life symptom anymore. Doctors can confirm that once the life symptom leaves the body, even if you use so many machines to keep the body artificially alive, they cannot perpetually hold back the decomposition of the body. What is it that differentiates a live body and a dead body? Modern science would say the brain waves stop moving, the heart stops beating. But there’s more to it than that. Actually, the living force which makes brain waves and heart beat leaves the body. That is (that) what we call death.

So in Dhruva Mahārāja’s case he never died. None of the beings ever actually die in a real sense that we cease to exist, we always exist. But we go through this moving from one body to the next that is what we call as death. But in Dhruva Mahārāja’s case, he never had to go through that change.

We know Dhruva Mahārāja, when he was five years old, when he was insulted by his father Uttānapāda. He wanted to sit on the lap of his father but his father pushed him off. Why? Because his step-mother criticized that why you are favouring your other wife’s son and not my son? So because he was very attached to his second wife, he pushed Dhruva off his lap and took the other son of the second mother on his.., second step-wife on his lap. Dhruva Mahārāja was so insulted. He was so humiliated. He went to his mother and said can something be done? What could she do if she’s not in favour? As a co-wife, in that type of situation what could she do? Nothing she could do, he went to the ministers. What could the ministers do, whatever the king does the ministers have nothing to say over it. So he was very upset, he went to different people.

Finally he again went to his mother and he said what is the solution? We know the story how his mother said, well there’s no one here that can help you, the only one who could possibly help you is God, is the Bhagavān. Now I don’t know exactly where Bhagavān is, I know that the sages go in the forest to find Bhagavān, so maybe he is in the forest. So Dhruva Mahārāja, he goes in the forest, as a small child, looking everywhere “Where is Bhagavān? Where is Bhagavān?” He is going up to the trees, he is going to the rocks “are you Bhagavān? Are you Bhagavān?”. He goes up to the tiger. He doesn’t have any idea what does Bhagavān look like. All he knows it is Bhagavān and this Bhagavān can save him, can solve his problem, He is the Supreme Lord. He may look at anyway, he doesn’t know, he’s just a small child. He’s going up to the tigers “Are you Bhagavān?”. The tiger himself is so; himself is so ferocious in his quest for Bhagavān even the tiger goes off. In this way he’s looking everywhere, asking everyone. Nobody can help him in the forest. So Bhagavān, all knowing Nārāyaṇa sends Nārada Muni to Dhruva Mahārāja.

So Nārada Muni, he appears before Dhruva Mahārāja. Dhruva Mahārāja sees him, he says “Are you Bhagavān? He doesn’t know he thinks maybe this is Bhagavān, he’s just flew in. So then Nārada Muni said “No, I am not Bhagavān but I’ve been sent by Bhagavān. I’m a servant of Bhagavān Sri Nārāyaṇa”. So he said “well, can you help me to find Bhagavān? I’m looking for Bhagavān”. Why do you want to find Bhagavān? You are a small child, here in the forest it is very dangerous here, there are snakes, there are wild animals, you should go back to your mother where you can be very peaceful and you don’t have to encounter so many difficult”. Listen, Dhruva Mahārāja said “If you can kindly help me to find Bhagavān, then I’m going to stay here and listen to you. But if you are going to give me all this waste of time, then I’m not going to stay here, I’m finding Bhagavān whether you help me or not”. So when Nārada Muni could see he was totally determined, he said “Alright, I’ll tell you. This is not the way to find Bhagavān. If you want to find Him, you chant the mantra, by chanting mantra and meditating, He reveals Himself spiritually to the devotee. So I’m gonna give you the mantra by which you can meditate, you can find Bhagavān, He’ll reveal Himself to you in due course of time”. So Nārada Muni initiated him into the mantra of that age. Just like in this age the mantra is

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

In that age the mantra was another mantra. He initiated that mantra into the ear of Dhruva Mahārāja. Dhruva Mahārāja was chanting that mantra under the formula and guidance of Nārada Muni, then Nārada Muni disappeared.

So everyone knows that as a child Dhruva Mahārāja’s meditation was successful and he was able to see Nārāyaṇa. But afterwards Nārāyaṇa blessed him that you’ll be a king for 36,000 years. In those ages people lived longer. He was not only the king of one planet; he was the grandson of Manu so he had a much larger domain. So then, after living this long period of time as a very successful king, at the end of his life Dhruva Mahārāja of course, he said “I don’t want this kingdom; I don’t want all these things. I want now that I desired these things, I desired broken glass, but instead I have got diamond, I have found You, I want to simply serve You purely, I don’t want anything else. I have desired things which were insignificant”.

In other words, by his practise of chanting, even though he had so many desires, when he finally could have the darshan of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa,Kṛṣṇa then he was so filled with devotion that then he didn’t want anything else but to serve Nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa said “Since you have desired all these things, I’m going to fulfil all your desires. Don’t worry, in the end you will come to me”.

Even when we serve the Lord, we don’t even have to ask. When He finally gives His blessings, we don’t even have to ask “I wanted this, I wanted that, I wanted this”, He knows. Every desire we have in our heart, He knows everything we wanted. He knows how to fulfil those desires better than we do and He fulfils all the desires. But for the devotee, when they are full, in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they don’t desire anything else, because they are full. If you have a full glass of water, you can’t fill anymore water, it’s already full. So although Dhruva, he was now at the end of his life, he’s actually still young and healthy, hasn’t gone into old age.

Of course, this time we hear in the Vedas about different life spans, and it seems amazing because we know we live a hundred years. But all time in the material world is very relative. For us we look down at an ant, we see what is an insignificant ant! It is living only a few days. Within that few days of an ant life, it goes through the entire birth, childhood; you know, its schooling, everything. Whatever it go, it goes through the entire cycle.

A bird, in a few years it lives it goes through its entire cycle - childhood, mating and old age and finally it dies, everything, it goes through the entire cycle. If you look at a bird, look at the speed it looks, it’s moving its head so fast. It’s simply its clock it moved ahead, so that is hundred years goes within 3 years. An ant’s 100 years goes within few days. For the ant, it’s moving at such a rapid speed it’s living a compl.., a full life. So we are looking down at the ant, how insignificant they are doing all this activity?

Just like that there are entities on higher planets, they are looking at us, "oh these human beings! What are they doing? They are running around like ants making all these things”. So the whole thing is relative. Now we are living in one yuga - one time, in another yuga, there is a totally different time span. Because of irregular habits and so many different things, we have a different type of lifespan at this period. So we should understand, when discussing in the vedas, it talks about other planets, it talks about other yugas, it talks about totally other dimensions in some cases. In that perspective we can understand everything.

So in this case, Dhruva Mahārāja, he was at the end of his life but he didn’t have to go through the death process. He was immediately promoted. His material body was transformed immediately into a spiritual body and he was transformed ah rather transferred, going past all of the material planets up to the Viṣṇu-loka.

Of course, just as when we see the rockets take off we don’t, we lose sight of them after a few miles, this planet they certainly lost sight of Dhruva Mahārāja after a short time but other planets where people have greater spiritual vision. It says in the vedas there are 14 levels of planetary systems. We are on the 7th level, there’s another 6 higher levels. And each level higher also has more piety and on the higher levels they also have great psychic and mystic powers. So they can see the future, they can see so many things. So they can also, they could see that Dhruva Mahārāja is coming. He’s coming, he’s coming, there he is then he is going and he is out of sight also. Where did he go? They never saw anyone go so high that they couldn’t see. He went to the Viṣṇu-loka, he went back to godhead.

So basically, the ultimate perfection of human life is, when we are totally god conscious, when we don’t have to go through the cycle again of birth and death. We see in the life of Bhaktivedānta Swami Prabhupād, who dedicated his life to spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, to fulfil the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu to unify the entire world through the process of Harināma sankirtan, Sanātana dharma, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And how he lived his life totally dedicated to this objective and when he left, he was also completely Kṛṣṇa conscious, surrounded by his devotees chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, he left the mortal frame without any suffering in that pastime in total spiritual consciousness.

So we have heard from so many doctors that when someone leaves the body,normally, they are filled with fear and there are many horrible things that happen. Actually no one should be afraid of what is life, if we have proper knowledge. The vedas are meant to give a human being real knowledge of the world we live in, this life and the life after this life, what is the objective of life? What is the purpose of life?

Actually if you analyse the different social problems, the different causes of war, causes of violence in the world, basically it comes down to a lack of spiritual understanding.

Where since that Dhruva Mahārāja at one point in his life, his brother was killed by a group of Moradin attackers, known as Yakṣas. So in vengeance, Dhruva Mahārāja attacked their capital city and declared war on them. And there was a huge battle, not only were the murderer of his brother killed, but so many innocent people were killed in the war. So finally Manu came with so many sages and they went to see Dhruva and they said, "one person has committed the fault, he killed your brother. We are very glad to know that you have great affection and sentiment for your brother. But as a person who knows the Vedic principles, who is civilized, why should so many suffer for the sin of one person? Innocent people, you should its not good declare a war and do all these things excessively over the sin of one person. When so many people who are not connected with that crime, they are all forced to suffer”. So then Dhruva Mahārāja could see that he made a mistake and he discontinued the war.

In this world today there are so many feuds in Lebanon between Israelis and Muslim and Lebanese and so on. All these things are going on, in Ireland between the protestants and the catholics and in different parts of the world, it starts off with one thing and then it escalates. Then it goes on like increasing like becoming bigger and bigger until finally there’s a massive terrorism, massive destruction in the world. If we bring it back, it’s because of the lack of proper understanding of spiritual and religious principles. Even if it is in the name of religion.

It is in the name of religious principle, defending his brother, his honor and so forth that Dhruva Mahārāja was killing so many Yakṣas in war, it was a declared war and so on. But he was taught what is the use of this? It was not actually the real meaning of the religious principles.

Sometimes in the name of, someone may have an idea this is honor, this is pride, this is religion and they may do something when actually it’s not holy, it’s not sacred, it’s not religious. It’s misplaced, improper sometimes.

Just as Manu stated that you can defend yourself against an aggressor, someone attacks you, you can defend yourself, you can even kill an aggressor and there’s no sin. But if someone is not an aggressor even if he threatens from a distant place, you don’t have the right to kill him. There is many examples like this in the Vedas. But if someone doesn’t know the Vedas properly, no matter who he is, they have to take the reaction if they act improperly unless they are especially excused by the Lord.

So Dhruva Mahārāja, he made mistakes, but he was counselled by elders, he accepted, he corrected the mistake, it was absolved. And in the end, he went back to home, went back to godhead.

Chaitanya Mahāprabhu, His teaching was that everyone in this kali yuga is bound to have made many mistakes. If we want to analyze what are the sinful activities that someone has performed, there is no need of going into that, it’s bound that people have made mistakes, because it’s the nature of kali. How many people are able to be 100% pure? Someone may be 95% pure, someone may be 5% but some mistake is gonna be there. So therefore He says that any evil, clearway, whatever residual karmas are there, He’s willing to make a clean slate if someone takes to the process of chanting

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

avoiding the ten offences to the Holy name. This is Lord Chaitanya’s special mercy.

Jagāi, Mādhāi were two very notorious persons, they were criminals in Navadvīpa, they were born in a brāhmaṇa family, but later they committed so many heinous activities, murder, rape, robbing, you name any type of, they were like mafia of Navadvīpa, organised crime! They were more than gundas. They were really notorious type, very violent, intoxicated. At the same time, somehow Lord Nityānanda was determined to deliver them. So finally, after more than one encounter, when Nityānanda had requested them to please lead a holy life and chant the Holy name of the Lord - Hare Kṛṣṇa. I mean, they weren’t so encouragable. They thought this was a joke. Mādhāi picked up a broken clay pot wine bottle, those days the bottles they weren’t glass bottle, they drink the wine in clay bottle, clay pot. So it was a wine pot. He picked it and smashed it over the head of Lord Nityānanda - the associate of Lord Chaitanya. Blood was pouring out but Nityānanda was totally determined that whatever it takes I gotta deliver these two brothers. Just because you beat me over the head, does that mean that I won’t give you love for Kṛṣṇa? I again repeat to you, you take this chanting of the Holy name.

The other brother was astonished. They never saw anybody with that much courage, that much conviction. It is to even he’s struck to be mortally wounded and he’s still totally determined to help someone else. He told his brother this person is a real saint, so don’t do it, don’t mess around with him. Of course, in the meantime Lord Caitanya heard Lord Nityānanda was struck. He came on the scene. This time, although He was Kṛṣṇa coming in disguise trying to remain as a devotee, He couldn’t contain Himself. He just called the Sudarśana cakra. Sudarśana cakra was coming in the sky brilliant than more than millions of suns. Somehow the two brothers, they came to their senses that they are about to be annihilated and they surrendered to Lord Nityānanda. Nityānanda told Lord Chaitanya “Don’t punish them, because if you punish them, you have to punish everyone”. These two Jagāi, Mādhāis now, too sinful, dishonest people. But in kali-yuga there’s going to be countless. Give them your mercy. This was Lord Nityānanda’s mood, giving the mercy. So these two brothers, they begged “alright ! we’ll do whatever you say, please forgive us”. So they were given a clean slate. They were told take a bath in the Ganges, purify and come back. They were given initiation but Lord Caitanya said, on a condition “you don’t anymore do any of those sinful activities”. Clean slate!

This is the special mercy of Lord Chaitanya Mahāprabhu that He cleans all of the karmas of a person. And not only that but that in this lifetime, this heavenly pleasure or spiritual Vaikuṇṭha happiness that Dhruva Mahārāja is experiencing going back to godhead.

One can already get taste of that nectar by the pure chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā mantra. Someone gave me example just like this very nice feast I see has been laid out. Of course, here all are adults but if there were small children, you told the children, "now you first you have to take all these vegetables and the sambar and the rasam and everything”. In north India you have to take the sukto, saag, chachchori and so on, different preparation and at the end you take the sweet, they became impatient. They want to just go for the sweet first. So the parent give a little sweet and then they have to give the rest of them. That the children are impatient, they want to eat the sweet first, especially the sweets.

So Prabhupād explained that Lord Caitanya He gave first the dessert. He’s first giving the nectar, if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā mantra, if you practise this bhakti-yoga, it’s actually so enjoyable that first you feel the spiritual happiness. After that when one is already convinced, because in this age people want to experience something, they want something which is not simply a theory, not simply words, but something practical that they can experience.

How is Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupād so successful all over the world in spreading the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement? Not because he simply gave the philosophy, but because he gave a realization. He convinced the people with philosophy and with a practical way of life that produced the result. The result - peacefulness, happiness [Not Clear – 00:25:32] contendness, spiritual bliss, and some cases even ecstasy. Because of a real feeling of the change of heart therefore people could sustain themselves, even though he had very strict principles that they should avoid all unnecessary violence and meat eating, that they should avoid intoxication and gambling, they should avoid illicit sex or that means extra marital Vedic sexual activities.

Where in the west these four activities, actually before Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, the guru of our guru he sent a preacher to London and he went there in the 18 early 1900s. He had approached certain Lords and different people, they said we are interested in your philosophy, your Vedic philosophy is very profound. What do we have to do? Well you should give up intoxication and wine drinking and meat eating and this extra marital sex and also you should give up gambling. And those Lords, they said how will you live? I cannot live without these things, I’ll die. This is life; you just said give up life. They couldn’t imagine that they could be alive without these four activities. Of course in this modern world, it is very hard for people to follow these activities, because it is a whole tradition, it’s whole environment that’s come up. And especially when someone has been in a habit for a long period of time, it is difficult to suddenly change.

Bhaktivedanta Swami, he first also tried to preach to the very elderly people, but he found it was very difficult to change their ways. Even they said we agree with your philosophy, we like it but it will take us some time to be able to change, it’s not so easy. So the younger people, somehow they came to him, college students, university students. At that time there were many youth moving around in the west looking for some solution to many problems that were there in life and that so he started to offer to a very good group of young people. He moved from the upper part of New York to the lower New York and then many followers came and he went to San Francisco then to Montreal, London, then to the.., then he came like this in 5 years he went all over the west and he came back to India in 1970. From India, he came here to Malaysia and went to somewhere after that also, already before that he was in Japan and Australia, like this all around the world.

When he went to Australia, that time in Melbourne, the newspaper “Age” journalist interviewed him at the airport. He said, “Swamiji you are coming from a poor country India to Australia, one of the richest countries in the world, developed nation and there they are really proud. So why have you come here? Have you come here to beg aid from us?” What an obnoxious question, whereas Prabhupād, he said “No I have come here to give you something. I have come here to give you the wealth of Indian philosophy, of the vedic knowledge. I have come here to save you from a dog’s life”. [Devotees laugh] Then they said, “Swamiji, Are you saying that we are leading a dog’s life?” Well a dog is eating,you are eating, a dog is sleeping,you are sleeping, a dog may be eating off the floor, you are eating in a very luxurious restaurant but eating is the same. Dog is sleeping, may be sleeping in the street or in the side of the roof, you are sleeping on a big bed but sleeping is the same. Dog is having sex, you are also having sex, free love. Then dog is defending, fighting with his teeth and his claws, you are using atomic weapons and jets. So what is the difference? You have a point.

So the next day the headline of “the Age”came, actually Prabhupād sent this to me in a letter. I was in Māyāpur since 1970 - 79, I never left India. Wherever he would go around the world, he would come and spend 2,3 months with me in Māyāpur, giving me guidance, how to develop the things in India? And also when he would travel he would write me regular letters. If I wouldn’t write to him, after 2 weeks he’d write why have you not written me?

So he wrote one letter from Australia with this newspaper clipping. Unfortunately someone, I think borrowed it and I never got it back. But the heading was that “Swamiji has come to save us from a dog’s life” in the front page. And the sub heading was, he has come to hound us. [Devotees laughter] Then they gave the write-up. They had a good sense of humor.

So actually Srila Prabhupād, he was type of spiritual revolutionary in one sense, so he was a great ambassador. He would go without any shame, without any shame of the Indian philosophy. With total confidence and honor and at the same time with a good sense of humor, good imagination, knowing how to actually approach the different people on different places.

So of course, we are all feeling the absence of his physical presence here in the world but he lives on through his books, over 90 literatures he has left us, he has left us the International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, which he called as his body to implement his will in his absence and he has left us so many gifts. He left us with the desire to continue to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. He came here to Malaysia to Ipoh, graced some of your homes, put the idea that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will also fructify here. Certainly many seeds of devotion have been planted here that is why many devotees are showing great enthusiasm for Kṛṣṇa consciousness over the years.

Actually we have a very great responsibility in the world today. Lord Caitanya has given a process which anyone can practice anywhere in the world and very quickly achieve peace of mind, achieve spiritual knowledge, achieve spiritual happiness. This can solve the basic problems in the world. But it requires that those who are awakened, just like if someone discovers that there may be disease in the world. So doctors are researching to find out what is the vaccine? What is the vaccine for cancer? Or what is the cure for tuberculosis? Or what is the cure for another stunning, cure for AIDS, or other diseases? They are looking. If someone finds, they’ll broadcast to the world “we have a vaccination, we have a breakthrough”. Even they don’t find it, they find a clue, it goes through all the papers everyone “Oh! There’s a hope we can get saved from that terrible disease”.

Just like that here there’s a disease the whole world is in illusion, they are all dying, and taking again birth and again. Here’s the easy way they can all achieve liberation, they can all achieve pure devotion, they can all achieve love of god and go back to the spiritual world. So how urgently this should be broadcasted to everyone? Unfortunately everyone is focused on the vaccine for cancer, but the vaccines for this type of medicine people are not really well aware of the depth of the disease.

That’s why just like if there is some disease, they again and again tell the people this is a dangerous disease. What do they call Muscular sclerosis or so many diseases that people don’t know about. And they are always propagating different foundations - this is a disease, you should all know about it and give your money for solving the, researching and finding the problem. So actually people, they don’t know that there is a real problem. They take death for granted, they take old age for granted, they take the suffering in the world for granted but they are disease that’s why the Vedas tell us these are kleśas. kleśas of life, these are sufferings of life, there is a solution for this. But someone has to go and broadcast that to the people. There are problems in life, there is a solution. This is the solution for this time.

Lord Chaitanya therefore, there is a song “enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro lāgi'”, I have brought the medicine to cure the disease of māyā “hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi'”. It is the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahamantra, everyone should beg for that, they should request that they should take it enthusiastically. This will solve their problem. Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Are there any questions? Mr and Mrs. Vasudevan, you have any question? I think you are asking a very topical question. Something like might be on many people’s minds but they weren’t having the courage to. It’s a natural question, because just at the time of was it Hippocrates? That position feel like self has always been a maxim that the doctors are expected that just like in the world say that something like there are may be somewhere between 600 million to 1 billion Muslims. There is roughly about a billion Hindus and then there is so many Buddhists and so many Christians. Somebody does something you don’t say Muslim did that, or you don’t say Buddhist did that, or you don’t say Christian did that, you say that so and so did that.

Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, one Yakṣa killed Dhruva’s brother but Dhruva took reaction, took action against all the Yakṣas and started massacring Yakṣas. He was not worried doing that.

So we find that within our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, sometimes, a particular individual or a group of one or two individuals, they may act independently, they may go and make a mistake, they may do something not in the Vedas, not authorized by Prabhupād or by the teachings. They may do something wrong but what happens is that the entire institution is held responsible for the action of one individual. Sometimes it may not even be an act by a member of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. In some cases it’s just they falsely say that someone did something. And in some cases it’s real, someone did something wrong. Sometimes someone left the movement and they did. But now you see it’s not there is. We have millions of followers. There are millions of followers in adherence to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and obviously we can’t be responsible for every member. Wherever comes to any of our programs. But obviously we have to take some responsibility for persons who are in positions of authority, for positions of responsibility.

That’s why Prabhupād had created a Governing Body. He said the Governing Body should be the watchdog. That in case someone is acting improperly, then he can be officially not recognized. Or in case you cannot take responsibility for someone because of some reason, then you can say. So that the world will be able to understand that who is part of the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and who isn’t. Who are you taking? Who are you saying is I think proper? Now, this is a controversial point. Some members, they were demanding in the past that the Governing body has to take action immediately when there was any kind of doubt or any type of accusation. At the same time the very same people, when there was some doubt or accusation in their case, then they protest that “no, I won’t accept any type of discipline or any type of regulation. So it is very difficult to run a spiritual bo, movement admittedly because everyone is there voluntarily. No one’s a paid man, no one’s a salaried person, you can’t fire anyone, everyone’s there voluntarily. At the same time, How do you maintain the purity? So the only way to do that is that you have a Governing body, you have rules, you have a constitution and then you follow that.

So within the movement as it stands, there is no existing leader or a guru or sannyāsi or ah is known to be doing anything either against the law or breaking any other principles. Here, it ever comes to light that someone is, it’s immediately reported, action is taken, the person is either given, put on some kind of suspension. Or given a leave of absence or some time remedial measure is taken to rectify the person for possible re-admission in the future or whatever. And but then this in turn has people revolt against us some time, but if you don’t do that, then on the other hand how do you maintain the purity? You cannot leave just like that. How can you please everyone?

But within ISKCON this is our principle. We don’t break these regulative principles. We do follow this principle of purity. And wherever there is a very strong evidence that there is some mis-happening, then the Governing Body takes an action.

In fact, this year, after one or two gurus were found out that there was some difficulty, they actually them self-admitted, they resigned from their position. And one person was a gṛhasta, he took sannyāsa after Prabhupād left the planet. And afterwards he went back to wife and family. So this is an embarrassment for the whole society that these things happen. You see, of course there was no need for him to take sannyāsa. We don’t recommend it.

In fact, now we are re-analyzing why are so many people pre-maturely taking sannyāsa. He was married, he had wife and why did he? He insisted “no I must take sannyāsa”.] But there was no need for him to take sannyāsa. He had a wife, he had children, he was already a spiritual master that was quite good if he could just continue like that. We don’t say that you have to be a sannyāsi to be a guru. You can go on serving as a brāhmaṇa, as a gṛhasta and you can do that service. But he was in some, other others were they are sannyāsis, he was a householder. He thought I have to keep up with everyone else or something and he insisted to be made a sannyāsi on his own. By insisting, someone made, “I’ll give you sannyāsa”. [paragraph But after about 4-5 years he was not able to, just he can’t just change in one week like that and suddenly you are married with a wife and you want to become a sannyāsi. He wasn’t aware of the vast change that he had to go through. You have to prepare yourself. Why is there in the Vedic system coming from you go from gṛhasta, you to vānaprastha and then you go to sannyāsa. You get a retired life, you get a gradual withdrawal from, it’s one thing if you go from brahmacārī to sannyāsa, it’s another thing if you are already a gṛhasta, he had a wife and even children he had. And this wasn’t like the whole body suggestion, was his own pushing he wanted to do it. He was a senior member and his wife at that time said it was alright, but he wasn’t prepared. So as a result you know we are all suffering. He is so embarrassed, he is like gone away, in one place, he writes letters and he’s ashamed to come forward. Even, so as a result the people feel deserted that our spiritual master was on this case and.

I took sannyāsa in 1970 at only age of 21 and I have been a sannyāsi 17 years. So I know that, I have myself about that 9 devotees took sannyāsa from me and many other godbrothers I have guided how to be and I know it’s a very big change you know. Actually we don’t recommend people take sannyāsa in this age you see. It’s a rare type of thing. Unless the person has got a very type of austere nature, they don’t have all these family entanglements, it’s not recommended. So one of the problems has come that these western, some of the western devotees even some, pre-maturely they take sannyāsa. The broad categories are they have some personal weaknesses. It happened. But it is not only that it is happening in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. 20% in our movement we keep that everyone has to be pure. If you are a sannyāsi in this movement, any evidence is ever found that you are not maintaining your sannyāsa vow, immediately that person is put into a some kind of probation or suspension, or even told to change his cloth. And everyone knows about it because that's the problem, there’s nothing kept secret, if someone has a difficulty, the problem is that it gets broadcasted so quickly, because our principle is to maintain the purity.

I mean there are religions where we hear 25% of the so called celibate clergy are all breaking their principle. It’s not like that in the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. We are following these principles. There are few cases you find about because immediately those people are exonerated, they are removed or they are told to get married. There’s something is done therefore everyone knows about it. But it’s a fact. There has been weakness.

Even in the Madhvacharya line, recently two of the junior acharyas for Udupi, they also left their vows and they got married to the girls that were coming from the goshala bringing them milk every day. They got attached to them and they got married. This is going on. It happens. This is kali-yuga. But that doesn’t mean that people give up Madhva, or give up Rāmānuja, or give up Saivism because a sannyāsi doesn’t maintain the vow. Even that they are not able to remain as sannyāsis is happening in Buddhism all the time, if a monk is not able to, he leaves the monkhood. That doesn’t mean that the Buddhism stops or Buddha’s teachings are not valid.

Prabhupād is maintaining, so many sannyāsis are maintaining. We are a hundred odd sannyāsis in Kṛṣṇa, it’s not that, one or two may have had some difficulty, even the senior ones may have difficulty, others are going on. This is happening. Sannyāsa itself is forbidden in the kali-yuga. So mostly the problem you find is only simply this problem of sannyāsa. So the first part is the personal weakness that someone may have. But that’s worked up the whole society. We have got right now 350 branches, we got may be 20 - 50 thousand active members, we have 75000 life members, we have 1000 and millions of people chanting in their home, different things. So if one or two people have difficulty, even if they are senior people, that can’t be said that the whole Kṛṣṇa conscious movement should be then declared as some way, invalid or something. It is a growing movement but it’s a vast worldwide movement now, and there is bound to be some difficulties that come up. Those are spontaneously being corrected and things are going on. But the other part is there, which is also a valid point, which is sometimes may be overused, as you said it’s kali-yuga, or other thing is also where there is sometimes governmental and official persecution.

In Russia we are being persecuted. There is no doubt about it. Our devotees are arrested there, through different persecution. Now if you say, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why it’s being persecuted in Russia? Nobody will say. Everyone knows why it’s being persecuted in Russia because it’s a communist country and is being, there are many other countries also. I wouldn’t mention this country for various reasons, we are also being not able to publicly practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness due to a very type, very religious or political or different biases.

Now, in Frausseilles in France, our movement there has still the similar amount of devotees. Now what has happened is that the government of that country which is basically socialistic oriented, which has recently put a lot of restrictions on the Roman Catholic schools and other things. When we submitted our income tax returns in that country, the report we got is that alright, you are not liable to income tax but you sold over the years so many millions and millions of Francs worth of books. These are sales taxable; you owe us 15 million Francs as sales tax. And how do we know I mean the Bibles, we were giving out Bible, Bhagavad Gītā, and taking donation for them, we are getting donation. They said no, this is not a donation, this is a sale. We are giving them book replying please give a don, people give a donation. We put that in the church fund. They are saying no, that’s a sale, that’s not a donation, we don’t accept. You owe us sales tax.

So that money is already been invested in big temple and different thing. But one temple we had leased, the lease under the, under this at the present time the government put serious restrictions on us, we can hardly function, can’t any longer sell books in the country in the same way. There is a number of things, we have to totally change our modus operandi. As a result and also due to other problem, there was also a change of leadership, but mainly that’s the government, because of Mr.Ch..[Not Clear – 00:46:08], there was no reason to lose the building that you saw in the picture in the, was the star? There is no reason to lose that building except for this income tax, sales tax problem. And the sales tax is right now under the court, and now we are trying to negotiate that if, the government wants to take away the temple and auction it on to gain the money for the sales tax, then somehow from another country we can buy it and preserve it for Prabhupād. We are trying to look into that.

But I know that even that one Maharaj from that temple is trying to go and donate the cows of that temple to Tirupati. Because they are also afraid that the government, if they take the temple, they may also take the cows and slaughter the cows and sell them and slaughter to get the money for their sales tax. And they are so afraid that these cows are part of their Go-raksha program. Now this could never happen in certain country.

I don’t think it could happen in America, I don’t think it could happen in Malaysia, certainly it could never happen in India that they are going to take your sales tax for selling Bhagavad Gītā’s and sell your temple and slaughter your cows. But under this attack, eventually what happened, the devotees said there is no use in having big temple in this country because the government is gonna take it away from us at the present time. So what they are doing is that dividing into many small centres, many of them are doing home programs and becoming, chanting and there are altars in their homes and different programs and smaller centres around the country. So the newspapers, from their point of view, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is disappearing. Because that one big centre with hundreds of devotees, they don’t see them anymore. The devotees have not stopped practising Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but they have changed their modus operandi, because they are basically being attacked by the tax people.

And the government in France, the law is you are guilty until proven innocent. Everyone knows that, that’s the opposite of the English system. In England you are innocent until proven guilty, there you are guilty until proven innocent. All the vehicles there have got a government thing on it. So all leaned by the government. Everything has been already taken by the government, if they prove themselves innocent, then they can have it back. So they are worried, what they are gonna do? They have deities there. I mean in most countries in the world, you can’t take over a church, you can’t sell off a church like that. They have the deities there, Radha Madhava Govinda and Nitai Gaura deities, and the devotees are, they are making a plan now, if the government takes the chateau, that New Māyāpur to where to put the deities? So we had a meeting in Sweden about this, this is what the governing body does. We had a little meeting regarding what to do on this and some special people have been sent there, some leaders to go and study the whole legal situation, talk with the government, see what can be done. If any misunderstanding may be someone made a mistake, we don’t know all the details. So we sent some people there, they are going there to see the whole situation.

When in this, sometimes these governments, they don’t want that this type of new spiritual movements as we are considered in the west. Because it’s new to the west, it’s not new to India, its not new to Malaysia, this is a this is a, I mean in the sense of Indian culture is not new, chanting mantras, worshipping Kṛṣṇa, may be the organisation is new. But the process is not new, but for them, the whole process is new. So they call new religions. So a cult or sex or so on and they try to lump us in some kind of a bad situation. So we have to face all these things. We have already faced it in America, years ago they tried to ban us, we took it to the Supreme court and they declared us as a bonafide religion. That’s why we have some, certain amount of status in the United States because we had to fight it up to the Supreme court, and Prabhupād was personally there directing the fight.

As far as Indonesia is concerned, Gauda Mandala bhumi is actually the regional secretary of Indonesia. He would be able to personally explain the difficulty. All the devotees are very sincere. There is no.., I don’t find any fault on their part, but it was some internal, you can call it politics. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spreading very widely, some of the basic, the Sivaites there something like that, they didn’t understand that we are not against Siva, we also respect Siva and everything. But somehow they due to some internal problem caused by some other groups that felt threatened by our growing and spreading very rapidly. So they made some complaint, so this type of thing you can’t say that “oh why is this happening?”. Because it happened in the time of Lord Caitanya. When Lord Caitanya was preaching in India in Navadvīpa. There were..,the brāhmaṇas went to, approached the Chand Kazi and said you have to stop Caitanya Mahāprabhu although He is preaching pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is gonna destroy the very Hindu culture because He is having the caṇḍālas, and the śūdrās and the vaiśyas and the.., all but the brāhmaṇas, all together they were chanting, He is gonna destroy our caste system. They felt threatened by Lord Caitanya’s movement. Later they could realise their mistake that actually Lord Caitanya was reviving the vedic culture. He was purifying it, but in the beginning people didn’t understand. So Indonesia is very new, even newer you can say than Malaysia in the terms of here it’s since 1971 Prabhupād came. I don’t know if Prabhupād ever went to there.

Devotee: He did in 1973.

Guru Mahārāja: He also did in 73. But there’s a good chance that that will be on our list very soon. One sense they had published about our Gita in “Basa Indonesia” or whatever and they have done so many wonderful works. The devotees are all practising there. Some of these things are actually simply like kind of persecution, mis-understanding.

In Chile, our society was de-registered. In Chile, I mean it’s a total dictatorship and they do anything they want. And they didn’t want that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement should be registered in that country. The Roman Catholic Church or someone put some pressure and they just de-registered. There is no human rights there, you can’t make any, you don’t even dare say, I don’t say we don’t even complain about it because they’ll just arrest you. It is a total police but because of it, the people are generally very mellow and we don’t break any laws. We go out even now; we are registered not as a religion but as an educational. We teach yoga, they are serving free, organise and different, we have thousands of followers in Chile. Government is not disturbing us anymore. I go initially in my dhoti, and they allow me admission, give me visa and there’s no problem, but they took away our official registration as we were before. Now we have a different registration under different names, and different things and we are functioning differently. Actually what happened, we applied to be registered as a religion, we were registered as an educational, cultural movement. When we applied for religion, the church heard about it, they said “no way, we don’t want another religion in this country”, and then they took away our registration. So I told them you shouldn’t have applied for registration as religion. What was the need? We are going on as a cultural society; after all we are preaching culture also. So there are some places like this where you get persecuted and this may get broadcasted. No one will broadcast about Chile or Russia because who cares. Everyone knows that these countries is not human rights.

But if something happens in France, people know more, so they are broadcasted. But any devotee, any life member it’s very, you shouldn’t be shy about it. We will tell you what’s the truth, we are not goanna hide the truth. We will tell you all “a devotee had this spiritual problem and this is what’s been done to correct it” or “no, there’s no spiritual problem among the devotees, we have been persecuted in this way”. We’ll tell you what that thing is, maybe because I know it’s a very small group and I’m just speaking topically. When we always speak to life members we would certainly tell them and in this way handed down to the other people. It is not another secret movement, we are open about what we are doing and we are not against explaining anything that is going on. But they don’t say that how?

For instance, in Australia how everything is going very nicely and how many thousands of books are being distributed? And devotees are being made. They are not saying how in India we had 700,000 people for the Ratha yatra in Calcutta, how 10 lakhs of people will be coming to the, came last year to the Janmashtami festival in Bombay, and how 6 million people came for the one month festival in Mayapur? For the 500th Anniversary of Lord Chaitanya, how Rajiv Gandhi inaugurated the 500th Anniversary celebration in Delhi? simultaneously with me in Calcutta, that time was Zail Singh the President of India inaugurated the 500th Anniversary of Lord Chaitanya with me in Calcutta in the Rabindra Sarobar stadium, How Kṛṣṇa consciousness representatives from the east and west of India were the chief guests with the President and the Prime Minister in India? These are not being broadcasted here in Malaysia. These are not told to the life members and public how the, so many wonderful things are going on. How we are building the first actual the vedic temple in Lima, Peru in South America? How they have a beautiful Sita Ram deities now on a big spacious farm in Brazil? How there’s 20 centres there? How the big temple was opened in South Africa amidst all these difficulties? In Durban, has a picture ever been put? The picture of Paris is being put, has a picture of Durban, South Africa ever been put in “the Star”? You see this is the thing and information is given in wrong ways many times. I very much appreciate this question. And certainly we do have these type of problems, some are real personal problems that have come up.

And once this was asked to Prabhupād “In a spiritual movement how can this be? How is this possible that someone will have a difficulty?” Prabhupād said it’s a miracle that someone is able at all to follow these principles. No one can follow these principles in the whole world. What leader? What head of the state are following this principle? But anyone can follow, that itself is a miracle. It is not unusual that someone has a difficulty maintaining sannyāsa or something that’s not a, how is someone able to maintain that is the incredible thing in this age. That shows some spiritual potency is there. Some difficulty may come; it’s a fact, because we are declaring war with Māyā. Some are little bit careless, since spiritual life is like a razor’s edge if you make a little mistake you cut yourself. So someone acts carelessly, they have to, that doesn’t mean that are also finished. They can continue on in their spiritual life in various ways and they can gain become glorious. Kṛṣṇa says in the Gita even if someone who is a devotee commits an abominable act, he should still be considered saintly because he is a devotee, in the end he will come back to Me I’ll correct his mistake. We welcome people, whoever you are come and chant. So someone may come, they may be a criminal before, they may act again criminally. We have to say now you cannot act as an active member, that doesn’t mean that their service was wasted. Whatever they did for Kṛṣṇa, they never lose that. That will bring them back to Kṛṣṇa eventually and make them advance and maybe we can’t accept them in its official status because of their mistake. But if they act properly, then we can accept. Is that clear now?

The point is that Prabhupād started a certain system in ISKCON that he was the Founder-Acarya and then as a movement. 65 he started, 1971 he said now the movement has got so many centres, in order to supervise the centers I’m going to appoint some zonal secretaries. And they are going to oversee the activities in their particular zone. And he first appointed 11 and gradually it increased. By 1977 there were above 25 zonal secretaries. I was also made one of the zonal secretaries at that time for West Bengal and Orissa and parts of Eastern India. Later after 78 I was given South India, since then I’ve been working there. Then Bangladesh and Nepal, that’s .., that time Prabavisnu was my regional secretary, he was connected before with Malaysia and other parts. So when Hamsaduta had his own spiritual difficulties at that time, then I was asked to take responsibility to see that the movement would go on nicely here in Malaysia. Now the basic system is that the opening of the temple or a centre is, in in, to be recognised by the ISKCON body, should be approved by the GBC zonal secretary. If someone wants to open a centre, I mean in terms of Malaysia we have a society here called the Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness of Malaysia and they have their own governing body. That’s a totally Malaysian affair and they sometime ask me for advice but basically they have a system or they can have a branch office. Like they have now a branch in Bukit Meratajam and different places but nobody tends.

What happened you see initially Rohini Kumar came to Ipoh and he approached me with Rahugana das that we want to be recognised by you as the zonal secretary and make this a bonafide center. We don’t want to work independent; we want to be working in a proper way cooperatively. That’s why he invited me, I came up here and you might remember we had quite a good friendship and suddenly he, our only fear was that being a foreigner in this country whether he would be able to sustain. So while we were discussing the formalisation of this as a branch or something like that, he suddenly had whatever difficulty, he saw some personal problem, so he decided to leave this place and go back to America. Now he is working, I believe in our Berkeley Temple of ISKCON so far that I know. He has a good standing there’s no.

So then at that time you also approached the, since it’s, somehow it begun, then we, that time I tried to encourage Yadavendra to stay here, after Yadavendra left here. I didn’t get any more report. I was a bit busy because this year I have kind of re-adjusted my whole program. Previously I would spend half my time outside of India, half my time in India. But this year I re-adjusted that I want to be at least spending about 4 months - 15 months(days) every month in Māyāpur and the rest 4 months I’m going to be spending between other parts of India, Malaysia and all these places in travelling and only 4 months outside of Asia. So, and also we re-organised Māyāpur to make it as a city org, I’ve been busy with the Māyāpur organisation, because we have about 300 devotees there and we have a very big program to make the largest temple in Asia in Māyāpur. So I was busy, but in the meantime I didn’t get any information about, may be Prabavishnu Maharaj did or not, I’m not sure of any form of request to recognise our branch here in Ipoh. You know we know that Yadavendra left, after that, as far as you know, as far as I know there was no formal request for making a branch here in Ipoh. Now the thing is that somehow it’s been like a type of karma that in Ipoh, the devotees ah have, they are so enthusiastic for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anyway they can get Kṛṣṇa con, they just you know go on in taking it, that’s the good credit at the same time we feel that in Malaysia, in a country where even Indian population is a minority, that we should try to avoid as much confusion as possible and things should be done in as much as coordinated manner, as authorised manner as possible.

So for that we require the cooperation of all the members here also. That when there is a difficulty, since in most countries there is one zonal secretary, here you have got two, you have Prabavishnu Maharaj and myself, and you also have a society here where Bhakti Vrajendranandana Maharaja is the chairman and there are other you see officers are actually are general secretaries, and elected here also today Simhesvara das brahmachari and also our Dvija Gauranga das adhikari from Bukit Meratajam, he’s also a central council member.

And actually there is a need to have someone to Ipoh on the central committee of the society and to make this as a proper branch. But for one reason or another, I think that there has been a lack of communication from both the sides possibly. I don’t know, but I know for; I have an up to date that at present there was a need here to again start the centre. So maybe that I’ve been busy in India, at this time, that’s why there’s a.., because I can’t give my full attention, I’m coming mainly third time used to encourage the devotees. So Prabavishnu Mahārāja is there, other devotees are there. These things should be brought up in the, into the Malaysian level or the GBC level or the zonal secretary level and we can solve the problem.

But the problem is that in this particular case sometimes what happens, the devotee just goes and opens up a center or something and we don’t even officially know. We may know that he is doing it but it’s not like coordinated or anything. It’s.., we don’t want to dampen anyone’s enthusiasm, we don’t like interfering with someone’s own practise of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Now in the case of Kirtanananda Swami, You know, I don’t know if it’s a proper forum to discuss this thing in the public like that because I don’t want to, it’s a very sensitive issue but there is a, there is a kind of thing that has to be worked on a much higher level. I’m personally very, everyone that is acquainted with this thing, no one said. I have a very great respect for Kirtanananda Swami and I’m really concerned that whatever the difficulty that’s going on right now could be solved. But because of some legal problems that came up in New Vrindavan and some basic problems of, like this, because in our society we have a rule that if you want to open up a branch, you should do it under the auspices of the local authority.

Like if you go and open up a branch without telling the local authorities, how can they be responsible? When something goes wrong, then the people are gonna think, this is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. But they are not actually working under the local authority. Even from the secret police and the other people, they make some investigation because in this society you are not allowed to have public meetings, you are not allowed to have an office unless you are a registered society. And so are they the Kṛṣṇa Conscious Society? No, because they never registered, they are not working under the central council, have they ever applied to the central council of the Society of Malaysia? Have they ever gone through any other formalities that are required by the Registrar of Societies to become a branch? And anything, I mean we have at Bukit Meratajam there is no full time devotee there, but there are about 12, 15 disciples. They formed their own society branch there, they have regular meetings, they have house programs and they also have preachers go there and give Sunday program they also give and they don’t, they are quite happy. Would you say you are happy? Or you can talk to the other members, they are quite happy working under the legal framework of the Society there. I think that the members in Ipoh, if they would work under the legal framework, this would be very good for us in the public and the government in all the respects and we could then try to engage everyone appropriately under that legal framework under a coordinated way.

But if it goes on you know totally overwhelmed, I mean I could understand, I’ve never been invited to the center, ideally I thought that when Yadavendra left maybe that center had closed down or something. I hadn’t therefore up to date what has really happened. I only heard actually on the way here. Prabavishnu Maharaj told me actually that there was a center here and he was invited to go to it but he was a bit shy to go because, not being an official center of the Society, that if he goes, he’s somehow giving some official recognition to it. When actually it should go through that National Council that they have in this Country and it should go through that. He didn’t want to personally take sides or something. If somebody wants to open up a center and not have done in an official way, then maybe other members who are going through the normal procedures, in one way they are prejudiced against. So he was a bit shy then, he even mentioned to me that there was a center but that was just mentioned on the way here, I didn’t even know it before. I’m only hearing from you now that it is in the same house it was before, which makes sense because that was not a bad house.

So there are some difficulties here. I don’t know if this is the appropriate forum to discuss it but I, that’s why staying here tomorrow morning that hopefully some of these things could be worked out and the, although there was a very tight program in other places. Many places wanted me to visit but we made a point to come here to Ipoh so that we could discuss and try to work out and make a more lasting kind of arrangement because I know that you are all sincere devotees. I know that Rama Tulasi is also certainly trying to do something to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in his own side.

Now the problem that’s coming with Kirtanananda Swami is that, previously he would always discuss with me but in this case he didn’t directly ever discuss with me for opening up any branches in the Society. In the meantime because of all the legal problems and some other difficulties which I don’t want to get into all the details now. But this is the, in Mayapur basically the Governing body said they couldn’t take responsibility for what he was doing at under the present circumstances. So they officially said that he is not part of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If he wants to be part, he should contact the secretary of the GBC and they will make the necessary. You know they’ll discuss the things and they’ll make some arrangement that he could be re-recognised as a part. Now to go into all the reasons why, I don’t want to do that in public and I don’t know even necessary to do, because it is very sensitive for me and for everyone. But if it’s necessary, we can discuss it but then maybe that should be done amongst. You see but the problem is that I feel that i feel that he should make a step to go and be recognised back as part of ISKCON. Whatever, if he made a mistake or may be did it very quickly but they are definite on both sides that there are definite problems over there.

Two murders were found in New Vrindavan and a person was convicted of murder and there is another murder happened after that and there is every chance that people will be convicted and the society has wanted that there should be some kind of inner change.

I personally thought that there was a better way of doing it maybe but my individual opinion doesn’t coverly [Not clear – 01:07:16] count after the decision is made. I had an opinion that we should have maybe done something else not ask him to be not a part of ISKCON but suspend him or something like that. I actually said that, people even know that. I didn’t agree that voting he shouldn’t be a part of ISKCON. But once the vote was made, majority, because we follow by this type of governing body. Alright, then I was said “Alright, why was he made that way? Because we can’t be responsible What if we don’t have the system of suspension and probation in ISKCON? You are either a member or not a member. You either follow the authority or you don’t follow. So right now he is not a member, if he wants to be a member, we will re-recognise him. That’s the way they want to do it. I didn’t agree with their system, since they made their thing who am I? I can’t go against it. We may feel hurt, we may feel it was a very abrupt way of dealing. But they also have their reasons why they did that and I understand the both sides of it. But I feel that somehow we should all request Kirtanananda Swami to be part of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Even if they acted abruptly, there are reasons why they did that and there are problems that happened in New Vrindavan, there is a lot of public media coming about New Vrindavan more than any other part of the world, there is a lot of good work they are doing also. But somehow this thing has to be settled on a higher level. And if Kirtanananda Swami wants to make a total separate movement and have a branch in Malaysia, a branch in India and a branch in, and make his own worldwide movement, how we are goanna inter-work? It’s a big question mark in all of our minds that once if a preacher wants to himself make a totally separate movement, it’s going to be very confusing for the people. There are good points maybe we have competition but this competition is also means that there’s going to be some difficulty. There’s gonna be competition, there’s some misunderstanding. We are both preaching the same philosophy why should we compete with each other. Why shouldn’t we cooperate with each other rather than each work in our own way?

You know I always supported Kirtanananda Swami when he had a disciple in South India - Andhra Pradesh. He said, “I want to open up a center there”. I said you have my permission and my disciples were there and his disciples. It’s not that there’s a group here Acaryapad disciple, Hamsaduta disciple, or Bhaktipad disciple it’s not like that. In our society we have 60 gurus, anybody can take initiation from any guru they want.

Here now Prabavishnu Mahārāja is being a guru, there will also be Malaysian gurus coming up we hope in the very near future. Anyone can take initiation from whom they want. But as a society we work as one unit, we work as one team. At the present moment, Kirtanananda Swami is not officially part of the society because of all the various reasons that I mentioned. We want that he should come back, we want that he should be recognised back, we want that to happen. But I feel that the more that he opens up separate centers, the more that there is confrontation, the more that there is competition.

What happens is that it is like burning the bridges. That people have raised different to substantiate, what he is doing he has to say “oh, I don’t believe in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it’s dead, this that. We are not dead, we are here alive and still going on you know. Whatever we are doing, we are trying to do on our own way. I also respect him, he’s a empowered preacher, he can do many things. But if this type of criticism, counter criticism is going to go on, then people have to … a stand. He is a disciple of Prabhupād, why doesn’t he work with all the other disciples of Prabhupād? I’m sure that this can be worked out. But if all the members should be questioned, work together with ISKCON. Work out the difficulties, this will inspire all the life members, this will inspire everyone. I’m there to do whatever I can to see that the differences are worked out. But if he is adamant, he doesn’t want to work with part of ISKCON, I’m agreed to work in that institution started by my spiritual master which has got all these branches and all these sincere devotees all over the world, Gaura Mandala Bhumi, Prabavishnu Maharaj, different devotees all over the world, hundreds and thousands of devotees. I don’t feel that I want to separate myself from that society. And even if I was dealt with in a very harsh way, I think that I would after, well after being a bit offended and everything, I would also request to please be forgiven and please request to somehow work out the difficulties and then work cooperatively. Again knowing that this will be more pleasing to Prabhupād. Prabhupād said the proof of how much you love me is how well you cooperate together after my absence. So I’m sure that you can find difficulty, you can find some complaints from different side but then the bottom-line all of us especially those who believe in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, believe in Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupād’s teachings, we should find a way to cooperate together, we should find a way to work as one team, work not in a type of dis-coordinated manner.

Of course, you being all grhasta devotees living outside, you don’t know about all these matters. So that’s why I’m telling you in a kind of a nutshell, not in a detailed way. Since you are actually very senior grhasta devotees, people have been connected now, practically going on for couple of years. You should become a little more acquainted with the situation and then make a very sincere decision and in this way we can have it work in a more coordinated manner. I’m in one sense, I’ll tell you, I am a very tolerant person. But in other parts of the world if this would happen, that the zonal secretary would be furious that how is that centers are going on and being created? and he doesn’t know anything about it. That’s not formally registered, even governmentally. You just can’t have branches coming up which is not legally registered. It’s against the law, it’s against the society and it’s against our own spiritual principle.

But I haven’t made any complaint because I don’t want to offend you, I don’t wanna offend Rama Tulasi, I don’t wanna offend Kirtanananda Swami but I’m coming here to request everyone we should understand what is the higher principle, we should work out something that we can actually work properly under the, under the systems given by Śrīla Prabhupād, under the systems of the laws of this country, in this way we should try to see that we can make a prominent center in Ipoh, which is going to go on continuously. There has never been a branch registered here in Ipoh, and that’s the problem. Different foreign devotees have come here, devotees from other cities have come here, I think if you talk here with Jagannath Vallabha das and Dvija Gauranga.