19820910 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.4.33

viduro ‘py uddhavāc chrutvā 
kṛṣṇasya paramātmanaḥ
krīḍayopātta-dehasya 
karmāṇi ślāghitāni ca

Translation: Vidura also heard from Uddhava about the appearance and disappearance of Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supersoul, in the mortal world, which is a subject matter sought after with great perseverance by the great sages.

Translation: Vidura also heard from Uddhava of the appearance and disappearance of the Supersoul, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, is a mystery even for the great sages. The word paramātmanaḥ is significant in this verse. An ordinary living being is generally called the ātmā, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is never an ordinary living being because He is Paramātmā, the Supersoul. Yet His appearance as one of the human beings and His disappearance again from the mortal world are subject matters for the research workers who execute research work with great perseverance. Such subject matters are certainly of increasing interest because the researchers have to search out the transcendental abode of the Lord, which He enters after finishing His pastimes in the mortal world. But even the great sages have no information that beyond the material sky is the spiritual sky where Śrī Kṛṣṇa eternally resides with His associates, although at the same time He exhibits His pastimes in the mortal world in all the universes one after another. This fact is confirmed in Brahma-saṁhitā (5.37): goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ. “The Lord, by His inconceivable potency, resides in His eternal abode, Goloka, yet at the same time, as the Supersoul, He is present everywhere — in both the spiritual and material skies — by His multivarieties of manifestation.” Therefore, His appearance and disappearance are simultaneously going on, and no one can say definitely which of them is the beginning and which is the end. His eternal pastimes have no beginning or end, and one has to learn of them from the pure devotee only and not waste valuable time in so-called research work.

Thus, ends the Bhaktivedanta purport of text 33, chapter four, canto 3 of the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam in the matter Vidura Approaches Maitreya spoken by Śukadeva Gosvāmī to King Parīkṣit.

Jayapatākā Swami: It’s quite interesting to know how Śrīla Prabhupāda begins the purport, by saying that the appearance and disappearance of Kṛṣṇa are subject matters for research workers, who execute research work with great perseverance. He also goes on to say that these subjects are of increasing interest to the research workers. And because the research workers have to search out the transcendental abode, where the Lord goes to after the completion of His pastimes. But then in the very end of the purport, Prabhupāda says that the Lord’s eternal pastimes have no beginning or end, and one has to learn of them from the pure devotees only, and not waste valuable time in so called research work.

That, in other words, someone who wants to research about the Lord, actually the result of that sincere research will be that it is beyond research. So rather than waste valuable time to come to that conclusion, better to go directly to the pure devotees who have got information from Kṛṣṇa Himself, get the information from those pure devotees, so that all their questions can be answered without any waste of time. This is the bona fide method.

The other interesting point is how His pastimes have no beginning or end. I was reminded when I said that no one can say definitely which universe Kṛṣṇa comes in first, where is the exact beginning, or where is the end of it? There is a banyan tree in Howrah, just across the river from Calcutta, which they claim is the biggest banyan tree in the world. It has some ten thousand of, some incredible number of trunks. You know how banyan tree sets down roots from the branch and those roots, once they hit the ground, they also grow into trunks. So, this is spread over now something like, I think it’s about two and a half hectares which is, say about 6 to 10 acres of land, and it’s all one tree. So, they offered a ten-thousand-rupee reward for anyone who can discover the original trunk. There are hundreds and hundreds of trunks. And which is the original one and which... And the other ones are the roots; only one can be the original trunk. So, if you find the original one, they will give you ten thousand rupees or twenty thousand, like that. They might’ve even raised it recently. But up to now, no one has been able to figure out which one is the original, if the original one is even still there anymore.

So, in the same way, this reminded me of that, “That Lord Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes since they are going on, since the eternal, eternally, so how can one say, ‘Where is the original universe? Where is the end of His pastimes?’ as this is going on. So, even they can’t find out where is original tree trunk in the banyan tree. How are they going to find out where is the original pastimes of Kṛṣṇa?” Therefore, they are described as nitya-līlā; the eternal pastimes, and they are going on continuously. At this moment, Kṛṣṇa is killing Pūtanā, Kṛṣṇa is killing Aghāsura, delivering Aghāsura this time, every, all the different pastimes, one place to another, they are going on.

Just as in one universe, they’re beginning. Next universe, another universe, in that universe, one, one pastime is completing. Just like right now, here in Philadelphia, it’s, say 8 O’clock, and then you go to the next time zone, there it’s 7 O’clock; gradually as it goes to 9 O’clock here, it goes to 8 o’clock there. In the same way, Lord Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes are going from universe to universe. As His bālya pastimes are completing and going into paugaṇḍa, in the next universe, its going from, into His bālya-līlā from His birth pastime. And this way the pastimes are continuously going on. And in one place to another, you can always find His pastimes. But it’s not that necessarily the next universe; there may be any other unlimited trillions and billions of universes in this material sky. One place to another, His pastimes are going.

There are so many universes that He can keep His pastimes even manifest in the material world at all times, that means that right at this moment. Even though Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes are not manifest in this universe, but if you die in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can be transferred to that universe where Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes are just going on now. And then you can be born there and participate in Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes in this material world. Śrīla Prabhupāda explained that, that is generally how one is transferred to the spiritual sky is one first takes part in the Lord’s pastimes as they are being performed in one of the universes in the material world. And then from there, after having joined the pastimes of the lord while He is performing them in this material world, then one goes back to the spiritual sky.

Of course, wherever the Lord’s pastimes are, at that time that atmosphere is completely spiritualized. So, there is no difference at that time from being in the spiritual or material sky, in any real feeling of the devotee. In the same way, if we consider the holy dhāma, the holy dhāmas of the Lord are also transcendental realms, they are extensions or replicas of the spiritual world manifest in this material world. Apparently, they are here, but actually they are under the control of the spiritual sky; they are under the control of yogamāyā.

Just like in the śāstras, it describes that in Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur, these are non-different holy dhāmas, Vṛndāvana is Lord Kṛṣṇa’s appearance or pastime place, and Navadvīpa is the pastime place and appearance place both of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So, everything that’s in Vṛndāvana, you also find there in Navadvīpa. Also, all of the holy dhāmas also take their appearance in both these holy places.

So Navadvīpa is described as having a, having a dimension of 16 krośas. And around that is described just as a lotus. If you have a lotus bud, as the lotus bud as the lotus bud opens it opens into the full blooming lotus flower, then you’ll notice that in the center of the lotus flower, there is an inner flower. And inner flower, in the center of that, there is a yellow platform. So generally, the inner flower is called the corona and the external flower is called the corolla, as far as I can understand from English, that’s what they call it in English. There is different name in Sanskrit, pāpaḍī and other. So, the center portion with its central flowers, it’s described as Navadvīpa dhāma. The very center, that raised platform is the center of Navadvīpa dhāma known as Antardvīpa. On eight sides, like eight lotus petals coming out from the Antardvīpa, they’re the other nine islands. Those nine islands are made through Navadvīpa dhāma are coming the Ganges, the Yamunā, the Sarasvatī, and those are being subdivided by 16 different rivers that have all manifested there in different forms like the Kāverī, Sindhu, the Brahmaputra, etc. Tamraparaṇī, Gomatī... So, in this way, these nine islands are created.

So, the nine islands, each of them signifies one of the practices of devotional service: hearing, chanting, remembering, bowing down, and praying. Different pastime... The central island itself is the island of ātma-nivedanam or complete self-surrender. So around that central Navadvīpa dhāma, there is a greater spiritual domain, which is non-different from the Vaikuṇṭha-loka. The central portion is just like Goloka Vṛndāvana. The external portion is known as gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi.

That śrī gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi, yebā jāne cintāmaṇi, tāra haya vrajabhūmi vāsa” [That] - Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said that, “One who knows that gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi is a cintāmaṇi-dhāma, that person is always residing in Vṛndāvana.” So gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi is also just part of the transcendental realm, and that has a diameter of 21 yojanas, not a diameter, but a circumference of 21 yojanas or about a hundred and fifty-eight miles, eight miles per yojana. So, in this way, the holy dhāma expands.

So that area, which is described in the various scriptures in Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana is under the Yogamāyā potency; it’s not under the potency of Mahāmāyā. Although it is residing in the Mahāmāyā dominion apparently, that’s superficial. In reality, those particular areas are under the spiritual potency, and for anyone who knows the relationship with Kṛṣṇa or Lord Caitanya as an eternal servant, who goes there, they actually achieve actually unlimited transcendental bliss and realization while being in the holy dhāma.

So, we gave the example, that sometimes... Recently about 2 years ago, there was a big crisis where the Iranians had conquered the, captured the American embassy in Iran. At that time, America was claiming that they have, this is an attack against their country. Because according to international agreement, that Embassy does not form part of the Iranian country. That is under the dominion of America, being a Consulate General or an Embassy. So, in the same way as now in the present international law, an Embassy is directly considered the part of that country as well as ships on the sea. So, in the same way, the holy dhāma, is in a similar way rather is directly under the spiritual potency. Even though it is residing in the material world, it’s management and transcendental reality is all under the spiritual potency.

So, Lord Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes are also eternally going on in this holy dhāma. adyapiha sei līlā kare gaura-raya, kona kona bhagyavan dekhibare paya (Cb Madhya 10.283)- that the pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa are going on continuously. And those who are highly fortunate, through devotional service, they are able to witness these pastimes, even today. So, that way, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, of course, he was able to witness the pastimes of Lord Caitanya there.

Lord Nityānanda when he took Jīva Gosvāmī there, they were able to witness the pastimes. Pastimes are going on even today. You can witness the pastimes going on in Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa, if you get Their causeless mercy. Sometimes devotees witness them through their dreams. Sometimes devotees witness while going into trance, meditation, and they see the pastimes. And sometimes devotees just with their own vision are able to see the transcendental pastimes in the holy dhāmas. So, we cannot underestimate the potency of the Lord’s holy name, of the Lord’s holy dhāmas, of the Lord’s transcendental pastimes – the nāma, dhāma, and līlā. Simply to meditate, to think about, to hear about, or to glorify has unlimited potency for purifying the conditioned souls. Because it starts to, just lock us into our permanent relationship with the Lord.

One time, Śrīla Prabhupāda very emphatically said that, “If you want to love Kṛṣṇa, then love His loved ones.” He gave the simple example, they say in the west that, “If you want to love me, love my dog.” If you want to love Kṛṣṇa, then you have to also love those whom Kṛṣṇa loves. He has His cows. He has His friends. He has His parents. Sometimes in India, you get these Māyāvādīs, they say, “No, no. We just want Kṛṣṇa in the clouds. We don’t accept that. We do not want that, Kṛṣṇa with His complete entourage.” We cannot have Kṛṣṇa alone. That is a Māyāvādī idea. Kṛṣṇa is never alone.

Śrīla Prabhupāda in writing the books, when he would have the artist draw, he would never accept any picture of Kṛṣṇa alone. There had to be a devotee or a cow or peacocks or deer or something. He is never alone. He is always accompanied by so many devotees, so many associates - sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam. The Lord doesn’t come alone. So, you want to love Kṛṣṇa, you can imagine how is it possible. “Kṛṣṇa I like you, but I don’t like all those cows and everything. I Just want You without the cows and the cowherders and all those village people. Or even, you know, none of these, you know, sophisticated Dvārakā-vāsīs. I just want You.” Why Kṛṣṇa will go to that person? If you want Kṛṣṇa, you have to take Him either with the Vraja-vāsīs or with the Mathurā-vāsīs or with the Dvārakā-vāsīs. You don’t get Kṛṣṇa alone anywhere; in fact, it’s quite offensive. Kṛṣṇa means Kṛṣṇa with pastimes, with qualities, with devotees, with place of residence—not Kṛṣṇa in the sky.

Isn’t there some song, which used to be a popular song, something in the sky?

I just see the sky in darkness…

Yeah, it’s probably...

(inaudible response)

Is in the group... (laughs) That’s probably some kind of a relation to something spiritual in some abstract way. Anyway...

Kṛṣṇa has all the transcendental qualities. But in His spiritual sky, He is not alone; this the researchers can never understand. The researchers, how they will be able to conceive? They won’t even be able to dream about, to get approached the slightest idea about, what is the variety in the spiritual sky, you see. Anyone can speculate non-variety, can speculate non-quality, can speculate impersonalism. That’s just an opposite-- light to black, person to non-person. But to actually understand what is the variety in the spiritual world, that is very difficult. If not yet completely impossible for any researcher to know.

Therefore, one has to understand by descending process of knowledge, by hearing from the superior source, and accepting their version, their description, as authoritative. Of course, to discussing yesterday with some of the scientists and doctors and everyone that, “Well people challenge with this is unscientific.” Of course, they challenge that, “It is illogical, or it is beyond logic; not illogical but a logical or non-logical-- beyond logic to understand these realities.” But you have to accept that by definition, it goes beyond logic. So, because it goes beyond logic, it doesn’t mean it is illogical; it means that it is a transcendental reality, and that has its own higher order logic, which has to be understand by different process than the ordinary manipulation of symbols in this material world. So, to actually know what is the spiritual sky, the real source is Kṛṣṇa.

And He is described here in the Bhāgavatam. He described in the Bhāgavatam, described in the different, of course, described by His incarnation, Vyāsadeva, He is Himself described briefly in the Bhagavad-gītā, Lord Brahma has described in the Brahma-saṁhitā. From these various literatures, we start to realize, we can understand what is the nature of the spiritual world that is the cintāmaṇi-dhāma! That is not a material place. But it is eternally manifested from the eternal and cognizant potencies of the Lord, and that there the Lord is enjoying eternally blissful pastimes in full knowledge. So that’s our original place; that’s where we want to go.

Actually, all the people want to be happy in the world; the actual place that they are looking for, that perfect place that they like to create through all their planning commissions, is the spiritual world. But in this material world, they want to create the spiritual world without Kṛṣṇa. They want eternal life. They want eternal happiness. They want unlimited blissful activities. They want everything to be in harmony. They want all the things that the spiritual world is, except they don’t want Kṛṣṇa. They don’t want that there should be the Supreme God over them, ultimately enjoying all the activities.

Therefore, they cannot create this spiritual world because the spiritual world is dependent upon the transcendental presence of Kṛṣṇa. But if they simply accept Kṛṣṇa, then immediately, wherever He is, that becomes the spiritual world. So, all their attempts to create, [a spiritua…] to create this perfect world without Kṛṣṇa cannot help but fail. And the easiest way to create the harmony, peace, and happiness, and the world that they want, is to simply bring in Kṛṣṇa, because He only goes to His spiritual world.

So, how to bring in Kṛṣṇa in the Kali-yuga? Kṛṣṇa doesn’t appear in Kali-yuga. He is known as tri-yuga. He comes in three yugas: Satya, Tretā and Dvāpara yugas. How to bring Him in Kali-yuga? That is possible because He comes as Nāmāvatāra.

nāma-cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś
caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ
pūrṇa śuddho nitya mukto
'bhinnātvān nāma nāminoḥ
(Cc Madhya 17.133)

Bring in the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. That holy name is eternally ever-cognizant, all-blissful and non-different from Kṛṣṇa.

Simply by chanting

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa
Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare 
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma Hare Hare,

then Śrīla Prabhupāda describes that, Kali listens to that name once, and then runs away in fear, just flies away, immediately defeated by the presence of that holy name.

So, we can take up this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, disseminating the glories of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa’s holy name everywhere, and Kali will be forced to retread, and the dominion of the spiritual world will increase, even in this material sky, creating the perfect atmosphere for devotees to actually be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then transfer themselves to the eternal spiritual world from whence one never has to return. nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ (Bg 8.15)- once going there, one does not have to come back to this material world of birth and death, to material consciousness.

Are there any questions?

Devotee: Mahārāja, in the Brahma-saṁhitā, it states that pure devotees are always seeing Kṛṣṇa within their hearts. But in the prayers to the six Gosvāmīs, it is mentioned that they were always running, looking for Kṛṣṇa as if they haven’t. So how do we understand those two seemingly contradictory states of their consciousness?

Jayapatākā Swami: In the 11th canto, they are writing in the purports, they give the commentary of the previous ācāryas as saying that, the pure devotees are always seeing Kṛṣṇa in the heart means that, they are always qualified to see Kṛṣṇa. But like the six Gosvāmīs, they are always in the mood of seeing Kṛṣṇa, so in that mood of separation, actually they are seeing Kṛṣṇa in His bhāva form.

But to increase the transcendental pastimes, so sometimes Kṛṣṇa is present and non-present. But the devotees are always being completely absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. They are always qualified to see Kṛṣṇa, but that this is just a variety of His pastimes. So, it doesn’t mean that... what that purport is saying that like Prahlāda or someone, they are always qualified to see. But sometimes they are seeing, sometimes they are not for the sake of increasing the taste of the pastimes. But actually, they are always cognizant of Kṛṣṇa through chanting and serving in other ways. That doesn’t …

There may be some devotees always see Kṛṣṇa without separation. Doesn’t preclude that there is no devotees that does not see Kṛṣṇa always or taking dictation from Kṛṣṇa always. But in some cases, as we know that devotees who are qualified to see Kṛṣṇa, don’t see Kṛṣṇa. So that was the way they described it.

Devotee: Śrīla Acāryapāda, could you explain, or at least tell us some of the glories of Navadvīpa dhāma?

Jayapatākā Swami: Was rementioned that Navadvīpa dhāma is non-different from the spiritual sky. The thing was, there is a special purpose of Navadvīpa dhāma that, because Lord Kṛṣṇa only comes in the three ages, in His original or spiritual, in His original form as the proclaimed Personality of Godhead in the Satya, Tretā and Dvāpara yugas. But in Kali-yuga, He comes in a disguised form, in a covered form as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He comes in the mood of a devotee.

So, the Vedas describe this in countless places. But somehow the scholars, even though those are just glaringly present in the Vedas, they didn’t really pick up on it, before Lord Caitanya’s coming. It’s just like when we read the Bhagavad-gītā. At least I have this experience, and then when I... even though I have read it scores of times, when I again, I pick it up and read it, I will always find one paragraph which seems to be like I never understood it in that way, or even I didn’t see it before or something like that. You get a new type of insight just by reading it again and again.

So, somehow or another by reading, very few scholars could actually understand completely that, “A Lord incarnation was coming in Kali-yuga.” When He was coming, it was mentioned there but not so prominently that people were not just over preoccupied with that thought. So as a result, Lord Caitanya when He came, He actually kept this cover by His yoga-māyā from the vision of the paṇḍitas, so that He could come as a devotee and not be disturbed with people, you know, overly proclaiming Him to be an incarnation, and then ruining His mood as being a devotee.

But Lord Kṛṣṇa[Caitanya] told His followers who knew who He was. He revealed to His followers, who were discreet enough not to disturb His mood of serving as a devotee, even though He was the Lord. But He told them that after His disappearance, the glories of the holy dhāma, the glories of His pastimes could be revealed, but not, you know, that they shouldn’t be revealed to everyone during His pastimes. This would be a disturbance. He is in the mood of Rādhāraṇī, of a devotee, and people are coming up and saying, “You are God,” just would be a distraction for His pastimes. So, after Lord Kṛṣṇa[Caitanya] left and Lord Nityānanda… After Lord Caitanya left and Lord Nityānanda saw to it, so the six Gosvāmīs and other great devotees, that Lord Caitanya’s pastimes and His holy dhāma would be, would be glorified.

In the Bhakti-ratnākara and other literatures, they give some insight into the holy dhāma. And it’s mentioned Māyāpur, Navadvīpa that this is spiritual sky. And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura actually, in contemporary time he did the most, to take not only the evidences from the literature written by the direct associates of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, [Aside: Navadvīpa is glorified by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, by the author of Bhakti-ratnākara who is Kichakravathy] and in addition to that by, of course, Narottama Dāsa, and various other associates, and direct disciples of disciples of the associates of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

But Bhaktivinoda not only taking their works but also researched the Vedas, researched the Upaniṣads, the Purāṇas, Mahābhārata and discovered lot of proofs and references to Navadvīpa Māyāpur Dhāma, and to the coming of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And he has recorded these in several books; some of them are known as the Navadvīpa Mahātmyam - the glories of Navadvīpa dhāma; and some of his own personal realizations - Navadvīpa Bhāva Taraṅga; then a collection of the Sanskrit Vedic references that he found, that is also called the glories of Navadvīpa - evidence section. And in various literatures, as well as in his papers, newspapers like, he had Sajjana-toṣaṇī, different, he had different four, five papers and periodicals he was coming out with the Viṣṇupriya Patrika and others and so; in those, he mentions various references to the holy dhāma, as he is researching and finding out.

So there, he describes in the glories of Navadvīpa dhāma, which is now being translated that, “Navadvīpa is unique in this Kali-yuga, because while all the other holy dhāmas decrease in their potency in Kali-yuga. People go there, and they pile on their sinful reactions in the holy dhāmas. The holy tīrthas or pilgrimages places, gradually their effectiveness for purifying fallen souls who go there diminish. Unless some great souls goes there, or some sacrifices are performed there, then those holy places they become overloaded with sinful reactions. So therefore, they don’t have the quality of purifying the visitors anymore. But in contrast, Navadvīpa dhāma increases in potency, as the Kali-yuga progresses. And its potency for purifying the fallen souls in Kali-yuga is immense; it just goes on increasing.”

Bhaktivinod Ṭhākura gives the example that, “Even if you just study the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, you can find that when the demons would come to see Kṛṣṇa in the holy dhāma of Vṛndāvana, they would get killed. But when the demons came to see Lord Caitanya in Navadvīpa, He would convert them into pure devotees, give them pure love for God. Jagāi Mādhāi came and they beat Nityānanda. In the end, they were shaved up and chanting:

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa
Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

“Chand Kazi broke the mṛdaṅgas of the kirtan party. In the end he was touched by Lord Caitanya, love of God entered in his heart. Lord Caitanya’s mood is all-encompassing that even the demons come and commit offenses in the holy dhāma, they end up with love for Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of the devotees who go there? The devotees, of course, get the highest benediction.”

So that way, it’s said that, “If a person goes to Vṛndāvana and commits an offense, Rādhā Kṛṣṇa don’t forgive one so easily.” Therefore, it’s a bit critical that going in the holy dhāma and when one commit offences to the dhāma or to the residents of the holy dhāma, unto the preachers of the holy dhāma, that dhāma-aparādha stands in the way of one’s progress. While on the other hand, in Navadvīpa, one goes there, and even if one is offensive, somehow by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, one can get the mercy and actually get purified from the offenses.

Therefore, it’s recommended that one before visiting Vṛndāvana, should always visit Māyāpur Navadvīpa dhāma first. Those who go on their pilgrimage places and first visit Vṛndāvana are doing it backwards. To first have to visit Navadvīpa dhāma, get purified from all offenses of the holy name and chanting, and then go to Vṛndāvana. Then one is able to worship Kṛṣṇa by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, you see.

Actually, to worship Kṛṣṇa is on the level of pure love, is supposed to be offense-less worship. And Lord Caitanya rather, He is tolerant of people’s offenses, and He purifies one from those offenses. So, by the mercy of Lord Caitanya we can worship Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā Kṛṣṇa. Without His mercy, Nitāi-Gaura’s mercy, it’s not possible to worship Rādhā Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore, even in chanting, first we chant

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda.

Then after chanting, then we chant

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa
Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare 
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma Hare Hare 

Of course, even Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra’s mercy is more than the mercy of Viṣṇu mantra or pure Rāma mantra. Hare Kṛṣṇa...

It’s described that Śrī rāma rāma rāmeti, rame rāme manorame sahasra-nāma tat-tulyam, rāma-nāma varānane (Viṣṇu Sahasranāma) - That Lord Śiva told Parvati Devī addressing her as a beautiful goddess, beautifully, beautiful-faced goddess, goddess with a beautiful face, that He chants the name Rāma Rāma Rāmeti, enjoying the transcendental vibration and that to chant this three times the name of Rāma, that to chant the names of Rāma rather is equal to chanting the names of Viṣṇu a thousand times.

Then in the Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, it also describes that, “If you chant three thousand times, a thousand names of Viṣṇu three times that’s equal to one name of Kṛṣṇa.” So Prabhupāda said to chant Lord Caitanya’s name, a thousand times more powerful than the name of Kṛṣṇa. So, then a devotee asked, “Well, why don’t we just chant the name of Lord Caitanya?” Prabhupāda said, “Well, because Lord Caitanya ordered us to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But first we chant Lord Caitanya’s name. You get the result of chanting Lord Caitanya’s name when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Because that was His instruction - to direct the fallen souls to worship the Lord in His original form as Kṛṣṇa.”

So, in the same way, the holy dhāma has got the effect of purifying. In fact, just breathing the air is like performing, you know, so many sacrifices. Just walking over the land is more than so many Aśvamedha-yajñas at every step. To reside in the holy dhāma for three days in Māyāpur is like staying for a month in all of the other holy places in India combined.

And actually, you cannot put any limit on the potency of Navadvīpa dhāma because there one can get pure love of Kṛṣṇa, while in other places usually all you can get is liberation. One sort of another even the best seven sapta-tīrtha, the seven holiest places in India if one does particular worship there like Prayāga, Badrinātha, Badrinārāyaṇa is Badrinātha, and few other places, then one can get actually liberation. In Kāśi, one gets impersonal liberation and in other places one can get actually Kṛṣṇa. But liberation or Vaikuntha depending on each place. But the only place where one actually can so easily get pure love for Kṛṣṇa is in Navadvīpa.

So therefore, it’s important for us to realize our permanent relationship with Navadvīpa-dhāma, and we should always feel separation of the holy dhāma. And if we can’t physically reside there, then through service and through separation, we should reside there in our mind. That way when one is doing saṅkīrtana for Lord Caintanya and feeling his eternal relationship with Lord Caitanya, then that is also like residing in the holy dhāma. And therefore, the devotee keeps that spiritual connection with the dhāma - that is my actual home, that is my actual residence. I am just a visitor in this whatever. That I am actually in Navadvīpa Vṛndāvana dhāma, and then I am just here on deputation for preaching.

So, in this way one keeps that connection, and thus one never actually lives in the material world but is always living in the spiritual sky. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jai

Yes?

Devotee: Does Lord Caitanya advent Himself always immediately after Kṛṣṇa’s līlā in the material world?

Jayapatākā Swami: He doesn’t advent Himself any other time.

Devotee: So every time that Kṛṣṇa appears does Lord Caitanya will also appear afterwards?

Jayapatākā Swami: Hm. I know that Lord Caitanya only comes after Lord Kṛṣṇa. But I don’t know for certain that He comes every time after Lord Kṛṣṇa comes. Not certain about that. I heard that, on contrary, that Lord Caitanya’s coming is more rare than Lord Kṛṣṇa’s coming, but I haven’t seen it actually or directly heard it from Prabhupāda.

Except that I heard directly that He only comes after Lord Kṛṣṇa comes. But you can see Lord Caitanya now, if He reveals Himself to the devotee. But then in, you know, proclaimed way, everyone can see Him, He only comes after Lord Kṛṣṇa comes.

Devotee: Since we are followers of Lord Caitanya, at the same time we are worshiping Lord Kṛṣṇa, where we go when we go back to the spiritual world? Lord Caitanya has His abode, His dhāma there, and Lord Kṛṣṇa has His dhāma. Where does the Caitanya bhakta go, who is also worshiping Kṛṣṇa when he goes back, back to godhead?

Jayapatākā Swami: Let me take it another stage, you see. Because that’s very easy to answer because, you see, in the spiritual sky, in the Goloka Vṛndāvana, Lord Caitanya has His own section of Goloka Vṛndāvana where He along with His associates, it’s described that associates of Lord Caitanya generally having, of course, separates mothers and other, they are generally having male forms. While the associates of Lord Kṛṣṇa, of course, except for the friends, but I mean to say that generally they are having the female forms like gopīs and that. There a lot of gopīs. So, simultaneously, in the spiritual world, those who are the devotees of Lord Caitanya, they’re having their form with Lord Caitanya, and those who are the devotees of Kṛṣṇa, they are having their forms with Kṛṣṇa.

Those who are having both relationships like there may be someone exclusively with Lord Caitanya, although this is very rare; mostly they will have relationships with both, because that was Lord Caitanya’s mood. So, they’ll have their form simultaneously with Kṛṣṇa and with Lord Caitanya.

But...So I was talking to one paṇḍita, and we were trying to establish the supremacy of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and we were asking that, “Why they, this was in Gaura Gambhīra Maṭha, one Himanga Sastri, the head paṇḍita of the Gopal Guru sampradāya coming down. That he was, they chant, “Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhu Nityānanda Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma Śrī Radhe Govinda” So we were discussing, why they cut up the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra creating khaṇḍa-nāma or broken name, and created their own mantra which was not evident in any of Lord Caitanya’s original śāstras, and so on and so forth? So, that was a long four-hour discussion. It was a huge battle. But although I was not such a great paṇḍita, but Prabhupāda helped us. So, we were able to neutralize his arguments somehow or another. Also he had a tactic of, I imagine this is standard tactic of paṇḍitas, he had a tactic of changing the subject as soon as he got cornered. (laughter)

So, just like he first started off by saying that, “Well, you say that Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest. But Haridāsa used to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but then Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa his whole life, but when he left his body, he said, “All I want to say is the word Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya and leave my body”. So therefore, that proves that Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is the supreme name.

That was, you know, his first thing. So, then we said,” Yes. So then, why are you not just chanting Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya? And why you’ve added Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma Śrī Radhe Govinda?”

Then he changed the subject and said (laughs)... And he said that, “Since in the spiritual world, the followers of Lord Kṛṣṇa are having their spiritual form as Vṛndāvana vāsī, and the followers of Lord Caitanya, they are having their forms as followers of Lord Caitanya. But here in the material world, simultaneously on the altar, we have Rādhā Govinda and sometimes we’re also having Lord Caitanya. So, while you’re meditating and worshiping the deity, but of course you can only have at this time, we’re limited, we’re not having our original siddha-deha that we can have multiple forms. So here in the, having a material consciousness and worshiping, now, how do you, how do you accommodate that simultaneously you’re having your original form as Kṛṣṇa, your female form say in mādhurya-rasa, and simultaneously, you are having a Lord Caitanya form? Then how you’ll perform the worship, what will you do? Which...? See, this was how he jumped and proposed that. How you’ll answer? (The devotee says, ‘I was trappin.’ Mahārāja laughs)

When you are preaching in India these things come up. You have to…

First, we have to chant

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda.

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa
Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

No, but when you’re doing your pūjā, you are supposed to meditate; like if you are in arcana, you meditate your spiritual form and do the pūjā, so how’ll you do it? Who will you worship first? How you’ll do it?

Devotee: First we worship Lord Caitanya.

Jayapatākā Swami: Yes, that was the thing. But he didn’t say who you’ll worship first, I just gave you a clue. The point is that first we worship Lord Caitanya. So, then we’ll have to do, you know. Obviously, we can’t do simultaneously because we are limited with this consciousness.

So, there we worship first Lord Caitanya, then we worship Lord Kṛṣṇa. Then accordingly we meditate. Anyway, these people are really tricky. So, these things come up. But you can see that how they manipulate these things, and actually somehow, they miss the boat so.

It’s more important to really develop our service attitude. Because these things are revealed. Of course, we know of them, and we should know about them, and depending on your preaching field, you need to know about them more or less. But we should know something about them. And it’s there for us to know.

And the thing is that like there are certain... this philo...they just speculate on all these things all the time, but then in the ultimate issue, they miss the boat. Like those take a mantra and divide it up. And then we came down after three hours of discussing on all these high topics, he said, “Well it’s very good for marketing. I mean there are some people who don’t know Lord Caitanya. They know Rādhā Govinda, like in Rajasthan, U.P, Delhi, so therefore we’ve thrown in Rādhā Govinda in the end. But because Lord Caitanya said that Hare Kṛṣṇa, so also there are lot of Rāma Bhaktas in Ayodhya and U.P. and South, so Hare Rāma (devotees laugh) This way, you know, we’ve got little bit for everyone (devotees laugh again) -- Bengal, Orissa, South India. They say Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare…” And when he said that, then we just knew that... (devotees and Mahārāja laugh) At that point we knew that, pyussshh... (Mahārāja makes a smashing noise) smashed him. How can he divided up the holy name for marketing purposes? You know, it’s completely unauthorized.

So anyway, at the end he admitted that, “Well, you’re chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa; we also chant once in a year-- this is bonafide. We actually appreciate Prabhupāda’s preaching Hare Kṛṣṇa all over the world. Actually, somewhere along the line, one of our gurus started this chanting. And so now we are just kind of stuck with it, but we also chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. See other groups are bogus; they don’t agree with Hare Kṛṣṇa. We agree Hare Kṛṣṇa is the original name. It’s all right. So, in the end, he kind of just backed down. At that point we realized, anyway, we couldn’t get much further with him.

So, in India, we have to take a lot of challenges and different people. Some of them, either one of them were sincere groups, they follow the principles. They actually appreciate Prabhupāda. They offered us some temples in Puri if we want to take them over. So, they are, they are actually favorable groups and only get to. But unfortunately, they’ve also compromised on this issue - their marketing approach by changing the holy name.

But you find these paṇḍitas, they go into the these with such depths. But then on the final issues - just to practically strictly following Lord Caitanya’s system as He gave it, somewhere along the line they just compromise it for marketing purposes or this or that purpose.

And that way Prabhupāda, he gave the Bhagavad Gītā as it is. He gave the original system as it is; he didn’t change it to suit the changing times. So that way, the original potency is there. And therefore, it’s having an immediate effect whether practiced in the west, in the east, in the far east, in the south east or in the Africa jungles—wherever. Someone chants this mantra,

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda.

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa
Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare
Hare Rāma Hare Rāma
Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

they’re getting the transcendental effect immediately without any offenses.

So Prabhupāda was kind enough that although he gave us all the knowledge, everything is there. These things are actually all in Śrīla Prabhupāda’s books, in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, as well as in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. And also, he discussed these things in his private darśanas, especially in India. But he stressed the main thing which is actually to absorb ourselves in the saṅkīrtana mood, to develop our service attitude which is actually much more essential for going back to godhead, than to theoretically understand these things. Because when we develop our service attitude and actually the mood of following in the footsteps of the previous ācāryas and service, these things are realized. And the realized knowledge is much more important than the theoretical knowledge. With theoretical knowledge, one can become confused, but realized knowledge is a permanent asset.

Do you want to go on?

You want to take a nap?

One more?

Devotee: Impersonalism... is that a form of, kind of, deviating from serving Kṛṣṇa? You were saying in the beginning of the lecture that they want the kingdom of God they do not want God or Kṛṣṇa.

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, those who want the kingdom of God without God are better than impersonalists, because, you see, the impersonalists, they don’t even want the kingdom of God without God. The people who want the kingdom of God without God are the materialists. They want the material world, and they want to enjoy it, but they don’t want God, you see.

Even the demigods, I mean, they respect Kṛṣṇa, you see. But this like two sides of the coin; in one hand you have the materialists who want to have the material world and enjoy it without God. They want to usurp in a way. They want to be able to enjoy as the controller. So those are coming, some as demigods who are still favorable to God, and some are demons who are completely offensive to God. But the Māyāvādīs, the impersonalists, they are completely offensive. And in a way, they want to themselves by...they think that they are God, you see.

To say even without God indicates more of the demigods, because they... By saying without God, we are indicating that there is God. But the impersonalists, they don’t actually accept that there is any Supreme God; they’re saying that everything is impersonal. That being impersonal, therefore, the concept of a Supreme Person doesn’t come in at all. That every individual soul is a supreme as any other soul. And that any form is illusion, so including the form of God. So therefore, they are great offenders, Lord Caitanya said māyāvādī kṛṣṇe aparādhī (Cc Madhya 17.129). They are offenders of Kṛṣṇa.

So definitely, the Māyāvādīs are very offensive to Kṛṣṇa. Those who are the śuddha-advaitas, who are...well not śuddha-advaita… śuddha-advaita… we don’t say śuddha-advaita verily advaita, kevala-advaitas - those who believe that there is simply oneness, nothing else. No variety at all; variety is illusion. How variety came, they never can answer.

But anyway, those people who are completely simply Māyāvādīs, simply impersonalists, they are very offensive to Kṛṣṇa. And they get this merging without their desiring for. The demons that Kṛṣṇa kills, they get that. Some get even more than that. But at least they get merging. So being killed by Kṛṣṇa, if you get to merge and get impersonal realization, then what is so great about that, you see. Even the demons get it. That means that these impersonalists are on the same level as demons.

So therefore, Lord Caitanya, He warned us, “Don’t listen to them.” Because if you understand their viewpoint, then that can destroy your actual appreciation of Kṛṣṇa because they are offensive. And if we hear offenses against Kṛṣṇa, then that takes away our devotional assets. So therefore, we should always avoid hearing the offenses of Kṛṣṇa, and their preaching is offensive. Their way of preaching is to offend Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmānujācārya, so he became very upset when he heard that these lessons that they are comparing Kṛṣṇa to some…Kṛṣṇa is a monkey or something like that… they gave it monkey’s ass, and they gave some example. And Rāmānujācārya... [Aside: Was it Rāmānuja, or was it Madhvā? One of them.] He was crying when he heard that example. And then they later, they defeated that person that, “How can you call these things?”

They would take the Saṅskrit word and divide it up in an awkward way, so as to create screw out offensive meanings to describe the avatāras of Viṣṇu. To try to decry that they don’t exist, or that is just an imagination, or something like that; it’s so offensive. So, when the great ācāryas hear these things, they would become just so upset that they would start to cry in separation of the Lord and anger into hear any offensive thing. So, this way, we should never hear the lessons of the impersonalists. And they are expert in completely bewildering the people.

There is one Chinmayananda. He says, “Yes, this Hare Kṛṣṇa is very powerful chanting.” He says, “But no one knows the secret of its power. It’s not the name - Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Hare - that is the power. It’s the little voids between the names. The power is in the void.” (laughs) You can’t hear one lecture without them offending Kṛṣṇa and kicking Him in different ways, you know, dozens of times. Their whole thing… They are completely anti-Kṛṣṇa, anti the Personality of Godhead. Therefore, one should completely avoid them, carte blanche avoidance. Unless one is powerful enough to defeat them, one should avoid them. Sometimes, the Indians, “Well let me hear, I just wanted to hear a sādhu. I’ll go and listen.” And they go and get completely bewildered that they can’t fix their mind on Kṛṣṇa anymore.

Rajnish is his own form of Māyāvādī, also the same thing. One life member was driving me from the airport, Manipur or somewhere. And then they had a tape of Rajnish, and they played it. I couldn’t believe it. He was describing, “How you are trying to make spiritual progress, you are going up, you are going up. And you are going into the, you are going from the material world to the spiritual world. But then you get half way there, and then some attachments are keeping you. And then you don’t have enough to get all the way in there. And then you are floating in limbo. And you are not in the material world; you are not in the spiritual world, and you’re lost, you’re lost, lost, lost... What to do? Then I come.” (devotees and Mahārāja laugh)

I sink, I firmly bring you back to the material world. (laughter) You know, but he know, he presented, you know, he is like a type of, you know, multimedia voice or something and, you know, with the background. And you can see the people, you know, they don’t want to get lost there in the limbo. So, then he keeps them firmly in the material world. So, they hear these Māyāvādīs and they get all frightened, and they lose their courage to actually make any progress in spiritual life. So, you have to be very careful.

These Māyāvādīs, they are definitely offenders of Kṛṣṇa. They may have their own transcendental understanding, and we may respect them as transcendental. There are some sincere ones. But even the sincere ones, generally can’t help but offend Kṛṣṇa in various ways.

So even though, it might be slightly helpful for materialists to get out of gross material attraction, that, it is detrimental for devotees. And those people, they are not able to actually go back to the spiritual world. Therefore, even if a materialist gets some aid just to get out from Māyāvādīs, hearing this to get out of material gross attachment, as soon as possible should get out of the clutches of Māyāvādīs, and come forward to bhakti-yoga, where they can actually understand the complete Absolute Truth. And their vision is always just on one angle; doesn’t give a complete view.

Devotee: Is that the last snare of māyā?

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, no. It’s one of the last snares. Sahajiyāism is actually more like the last snare. Sahajiyāism is more dangerous than impersonalism for devotees. It’s harder to recognize the difference between sahajiyāism and real devotion.

Impersonalism is pretty cut and dry, I mean, they just, you know, they don’t believe it. All quality and personality is very cut and dry, the line is very sharp. But in sahajiyāism where they seem to have a quality of a devotee, but actually, there are some subtle offenses to real devotees; they think that they are already an associate of God even though they haven’t achieved that position. And thus, they are speaking as an associate or as an authority, when actually, they are, because they are offenders of real devotees and they are not presenting the thing as it is. Therefore, they miss the whole, they are not able to actually go back to Godhead from that platform, and they are guilty of other type of offenses; do rasābhasa and vaiṣṇava-aparādhas.

They think directly that they are Rādhā. They think that they are Nanda Mahārāja. They think that they are some eternal associate, even before they achieved that position. I mean, they can’t achieve that position of being Rādhā or the direct associates, being one of the original associates. They could achieve the position of being the assistant of the assistant of the assistant.

But they directly already imagine that they are on that level, so it appears very attractive. It seems that they are very advanced devotees, but it’s all in the mental platform. And because of that, because it’s all superimposed by their mind and intellect, and that it’s based on these false assumptions, so it’s actually more dangerous, because it’s harder for a devotee to recognize - “Well, they seem to be devotees. They worship Kṛṣṇa. They somewhat…”

It’s actually what it is. Sahajiyāism is that you try to enjoy Kṛṣṇa. Bhakti means that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and He enjoys you; He enjoys your service. You offer the service, and that service is enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, and you feel the transcendental bliss from within. But sahajiyā means that, that person wants to enjoy Kṛṣṇa’s. He wants to enjoy the ecstasy with Kṛṣṇa. He wants to… So, because it is not a service mood, it’s an enjoyment.

So, one gives up the devotional service and immediately tries to like go into the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, and think about Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, and think about different pastimes to enjoy them. So rather than offering service to Kṛṣṇa and to be enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, one takes over the same enjoying attitude. Just like a person in the material world likes to enjoy sex life, enjoy intoxication, enjoy meat eating or gambling, they want to enjoy Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes. So rather than being accepted in Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes - there’s a humble candidate being accepted, and they actually tasting it in the real mood of spiritual life, which is to be enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, they try to like to crash the gate with their materialistic mind and then enjoy these pastimes. And they do it just by manipulating because there’s some bliss there. Sometimes they are actually able to get some kind of spiritual sensations mixed with their mental and other emotional sensations. It creates a very confused state which is actually very hard for neophytes to distinguish the difference.

Kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs are generally completely overwhelmed by, by sahajiyās. So, in one way, that’s actually more dangerous than impersonalism. But both of them are fatal type of, very offensive against real devotional service.

So sometimes the neophyte devotees are told, “Oh, you are in an enjoying mood, you know. That you are in enjoying mood a lot.” So, if that’s not checked, then that means they don’t develop the sahajiyā tendencies?

Could… They could. They can either develop from the enjoying mood, they can develop back into the material world, (laughter) and directly try to enjoy their senses. Or the other way, what happens is that, from that enjoying mood, it’s easy to jump over to trying to enjoy Kṛṣṇa.

Say there is a devotee who has an enjoying mood. And what happens in India, these sahajiyā would say that, the real thing is that, the real devotees always wish to surrender, be the servant of the servant, surrender your false ego, perform you service in this way: in a surrendered mood. And then naturally, by spontaneous advancement in devotional service, real appreciation of Kṛṣṇa’s qualities, real ecstasy and real spontaneous anurāga-bhakti comes in the heart. But no one... you don’t want to wait. It doesn’t actually take very much time. But it means that one has to actually change one’s mentality from an enjoying mood to a service attitude - sevā-bhāva.

So, when one is still in that… thinks, “Well, I am a great devotee. I am already advanced, or I am,” you know, but they just carry over the same false ego into their spiritual life. Those people, they will call you over and say, “I have something to tell you that even your guru didn’t know.” They don’t say that. They say, “I have something to tell you which that your guru did not tell you.” This is how they would try to attract the minds.

Some of these gurus try to steal away. They stole away a couple of Prabhupāda disciples in this way: “ I have something to tell you that your guru did not tell you.” So, that way, it’s like a type of prostitution, they put a comma, that you know they try to, what do you call...lay a number on you or something…

So then if you agree that,” Really! What’s that?” Then immediately you are implicated in guru-aparādha; you are cut off from your guru. And then whatever they tell you, it will actually have an effect. It’s like in a technical spiritual, you have to first cut your real root, and then, you know, they can transplant another root. So, the first thing is they set you up, and if you’ve agreed hear from them, with that comma then you are immediately guilty of guru-aparādha. Because to agree to hear means, you are doubting subtly or grossly that your guru actually hasn’t told you something, when the basic premise is that the guru has told you everything you need to know.

They tried to do the same thing on me, and I just denied, “No, Prabhupāda told me everything I need to know.”

“No, no there is something he didn’t tell you.”

“No, no, he told us everything - gopī-bhāva, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, everything whatever we need to know, he has said.”

“No, no, but there’s other things exist you know…”

“Hare Kṛṣṇa. I’m sorry, I gotta go.”

But there were people that didn’t go, they waited to hear. And then they left, and those people were told that, ‘‘You are so advanced. I can see your rasa now; you are a peacock (devotees laughing) in Vṛndāvana.”

And those devotees, I won’t mention names because just in case if they come back in the future... Of course, they are out of the movement now for ten years, but... pumping gas and other things. But in case they want to come back, I don’t want to embarrass them by mentioning their names.

Some devotees walked in their rooms and saw that these devotees where that time, they were apparently in ISKCON, (Mahārāja imitates a peacock flapping its wings)… (devotees laughing)

And the devotee: “What is going on!? What is Mahārāja doing?!

He had his tape on, and he is, you know, flapping, and then he looks and sees that the person walked in: “Never tell anyone what you just saw!”

“Sure Mahārāja.”

It was about ten years ago that this happened.

And then, you know, he is kind of, “Mahārāja, but then what were you doing?”

So, finally he said, “I’ll tell you if you never tell anybody. I met this guru in India, and he told me that I am, he told me my rasa - I am a peacock in Vṛndāvana - so I was just practicing.”

(devotees laughing)

It’s a real story. That person of course, later on, in spite of being a peacock in Vṛndāvana and then by hearing all these pollutions from bogus sahajiyā gurus or from different type of sahajiyā instructions, rather they, you know, in spite of supposedly already being in their original rasa - how they fall down and start pumping gas. This shows that they are getting into all kind of illicit activities. This is all just, you know, on the mental platform.

Actually, when a devotee reaches that stage, these things are revealed by the guru, either through dream or whatever meditation or if he is personally present. But one actually has to be on that platform. It’s not that it’s just oh! like mentally one thinks, “Now I am so and so.”

In fact, Prabhupāda warned us a lot of times lusty devotees immediately start to think, “I am a gopī or something. I am the queen and then I Vṛndāvana.” and then they start to… It’s do not that’s their actual rasa, but they are just getting little lusty. So, they translate that into, you know, immediately they think, “Oh. This is my rasa. I am attracted to Kṛṣṇa in this way.”

But one has to completely cool down all the material desires and lusts by translating them into service attitude, and then automatically one actually develops one’s real spiritual relationship with Kṛṣṇa. It becomes revealed, and that’s confirmed by the spiritual master. It’s not something that one just imposes.

So these, they try to immediately… This happened...There was a new Bhakta in Māyāpur, and he couldn’t make it. He just couldn’t make it. It was too austere in the temple or something like that. He wanted... The main thing they come in, they think... In India, a lot of time they think, “I am now joining the āśrama. There is no one, and there’ll never be anyone who is as advanced as I am. I am really…I mean the āśrama should open their door, Here I am.” you know.

And then you know, here is Bhakta, you know, Bhakta Shyama, Shyamarupa, whatever, you know or some you know, Bhakta Pradeep… and you know, he doesn’t you know... “Oh! Now you have to chant sixteen rounds, you have to do this.” This is you know, and they think, “Oh my goodness!” You know, I mean, “They are not recognizing me as a Mahāpuruṣa. I just gave up my job in the post office, and I have come here. Now they hardly recognize me that I am Mahāpuruṣa! I mean, I saw Kṛṣṇa in the dream. Can’t they understand that I am already a liberated soul or something.” (laughter) And then they, sometimes they don’t make it, you know I mean before we can see that they are on this particular… We know how to deal with it; we know they are on that particular trip.

But then they go to Vṛndāvana or something and some bābājīs, “Oh yes! You are a peacock, or you are a one of the tortoises in Rādhā-kuṇḍa.” And then they either swim or float, you know. They go into the whole thing for the next three years, until they figure out that they are not actually getting any spiritual bliss. That it’s all in their mind, or just, you know, externally flapping. And then usually, by that time they have committed so many offenses, and they become so bewildered that they just either as a bābājī, they just start falling down with the widows in Vṛndāvana, or they go off, and they just join the material world again, or they get into some kind of a weird trip.

So this type of apasampradāyas Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was continuously… Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura was continuously...and Prabhupāda, of course in the west, he had more Māyāvādīs to deal with. But still he had to always continuously be fighting because that was his main danger. That he was always afraid that these type of sahajiyāism and Māyāvādīsm would somehow get into our movement.

In New York, there was one Māyāvādī sannyāsi came into the temple, he was so upset! There was a time when there was attack by Māyāvādīs then the society had to fight out against that. Then there was time, when even sahajiyāism tried to enter into the society.

These are the main things that ācāryas and the sannyāsis have to always to keep an eye out for. That from the two sides, they always tried to move in and tried to spoil real bhakti. But it’s very complicated. Generally speaking, like this you are bringing it up, it’s becoming a topic. But it’s so complicated, generally new bhaktas and neophytes, they are not going to be able to understand. It’s a very complex issue. It’s a very subtle issue, and I am explaining because you are asking. But I hope it doesn’t confuse anyone because it’s not that simple a thing.

The common denominator is very simple: one is enjoying mood... both are enjoying mood. One wants to merge, and one wants to immediately enter the pastimes. And real bhakti is change of heart, where one comes in with a service attitude. The common denominator is very simple, but in the practical multifarious applications of the various kind of forms it takes because there is only one type of pure bhakti. You see, Rāmānuja sampradāya, Madhvā, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya’s - the basic mood is slightly only different. One is in service attitude in dāsya-rasa. One may be in mādhurya-rasa. One may in vātsalya-rasa. But the service attitude is consistent in all.

When you get into the apasampradāyas, āula, bāula, kartābhajā, neḍa, gaurāṅga-nāgarī and Kottanishi and all these kind and now we have a new kinds that are coming up - drug sahajiyās, you see. There’s another fourteen that can be added to the list. You see, I don’t know what name will give that in Sanskrit, āula, bāula … Whether they would be called drug bāulas or what? But...

Eh?

Something like that.

So, the point is, you know, these sahajiyās, they have so many varieties. So, when we go into how many type of varieties, but basically it’s the same type of enjoying mood - trying to jump over into the spiritual world, like pole vault, using some kind of material mentality.

When actually one just takes the mood of surrender and service, then Kṛṣṇa picks you up. There is no other way. You have to be picked up. You can’t crash the gate. You can’t merge in. You can’t...There is no other way. But Kṛṣṇa doesn’t let you wait very long. In fact, even while you open, and you surrender in that way, already the link is there. And Kṛṣṇa becomes so grateful, and then one actually then gets pure devotional service; it’s not even long in coming.

But these people, they try to just without going through the authorized process, by neglecting the real gurus, by neglecting the real ācārya, they try to concoct their own way. Then they get entangled in the sahajiyāism or māyāvādīsm. We have to be careful.

And that way, if there is ever any doubt, one should discuss with the authorized devotees who have been trained by, you know, through Śrīla Prabhupāda, through the paramparā system, who know about these things. That if there’s ever any doubt that someone is becoming contaminated by some type of sahajiyā ideas, or some kind of Māyāvādī ideas, that you are not able to reach them, and you have doubts, they should be helped as soon as possible. Because the further one gets into these concepts, even in, the more that one can become just completely lost from devotional service.

It may take going back to an amoeba and working your way up to actually get rid of those conceptions. Caitanya-caritāmṛta said that if one offends a real guru, he may has to take one crore of lifetimes of Brahma, or kalpa or one crore days of Brahmā, before he can actually be qualified again to accept a real guru. It’s so polluting. Once one gets this type distorted viewpoint, it’s very hard to again get a proper view point on devotional service. So before one gets into it, they should be saved. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Srila Acāryapada Ki jai!

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