19990301 Diksha & Siksha

The following is a class given by

His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami Mahārāja on MARCH 1st 1999,

In Sridham Mayapur, India

 

vande 'ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-guru vaiṣṇavas ca

                  sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathan tam tam sa-jivam

sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam

sri-radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-visakhanvitams ca

 

 

Guru Mahārāja: 

 

There are people who ask me can I chant your pranam because it has become like a ritual in order to take shelter of a guru, then you get permission to chant his pranam or I don’t find anywhere in any scripture, any reference specifically to getting the permission to chant the pranama as something as part of the ritual. It is an ISKCON isation ,What it does say is that you ask for shelter from the guru and if he agrees he gives you shelter. As far as pranam chanting is concerned, if you have shelter of a guru then you will chant his pranama. 

 

You can also chant pranam to anyone you pray to. If you want to pray to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, you chant his pranam and if you want to pray to Vasudev Datta, you may chant his pranam. You can chant pranam to anybody and pray to them. But, As far as pujas and everything, we chant to the guru. At once under the shelter of a shiksha guru. This was discussed by the GBC in the shiksha guru paper.  There is a primary guru who sometimes may be the shiksha guru and in that case you can chant the pranam of a shiksha guru like you would chant the diksha guru pranam. 

 

If you are worried about diksha or shiksha guru – whom should you approach – so it’s not to disturb anyone. Well you can always approach a GBC member and ask them. You could approach some very senior devotee, who is a very senior godbrother and is very matured in his approach. If someone sees that, this is worried. If somebody actually sees the  guru.

 

Like one time we got a report that a Guru had done something. One devotee happened to come across a guru engaged in some illicit activity and he even took a photo of it. So, then they turned that into the GBC and then we asked the guru about it and he was denying it. Then we pulled out the photograph. The GBC is very heavy about this thing. 

 

I mean like At first, I lived at Gaudiya math for 6 months or so, 2 months I went there. I was new to India. I asked, why is this one sannyāsī , who always has big circles under his eyes? He never stays at the temple. He always comes back early in the morning after staying overnight somewhere. Since, they are not so strict and he was the biggest collector of the temple, so nobody bothered with him but everybody was talking that they didn’t think he was following. They only chant 4 rounds a day – in that particular temple. In other temples, they may chant more. I don’t know – everywhere it's different. So the point is that….In ISKCON, if somebody does not chant with the devotees or if they are not visibly chanting their 16 rounds then, always there’s such talking even if they are chanting their 16 rounds. anything might happen there’s really Guru watching. That’s why we may have a higher percentage of guru fall down because we don’t even know what goes on at other temples – because there is no quality control. Maybe there have been so many Guru fall downs,so it's not giving, but no one is bothering. If they  report what’s goes on, then it would destroy the preaching. So you just let it go. So it’s lot of things like that. 

 

But in ISKCON if you do report something like this, I can guarantee you that we will take very immediate action – child abuse and guru deviation – they do not hesitate to take immediate action. 

 

How should a disciple relate to his former guru who has fallen? It would kind of depend on what level he was at – if he was at probation, suspension or removal. If he was at probation, then he is still your guru. But you don't…. You offer him your respects but you don’t take his shiksha - depending on what the GBC advises. If he is suspended, you don’t worship him, you don’t take his shiksha. You pray for him and hope that he comes back. If he has already ceased to be a guru because of this when I am hearing that at times the Guru resigns. They just say that I resign from my obligations as a Guru. That’s not even mentioned in the scriptures specifically. I guess it would be total bewilderment. I would consider that a disciple, to some extent probably be grateful for whatever help he got from a guru and there were hours I decided for the disciple went back to godhead. 

 

If Dhruva Maharaj’s mother acted as a vaishnava guru by showing him the path to the forest where the rishis were – if she could get back to Godhead then what to speak of a diksha guru even later if he had a fall down or some type of problem? If some of his disciples or any one disciple went back to Godhead, he will also go back unless he has committed so many heinous offences against other vaiṣṇavas or his guru to disqualify himself for that. Under normal circumstances, if a disciple goes back to Godhead, all the Gurus who participated in getting the disciple back will also get back too. So the best thing for a disciple is to be very strong – probably there is no reason to have any vengeance or feel any resentment. 

 

At any time if the guru is not properly situated, then we shouldn’t just blindly follow the guru. As far as how to please Kṛṣṇa, because he is more pleased when we serve the vaiṣṇavas. So that has been amply said that we should serve the vaiṣṇavas, we should go on serving the vaiṣṇavas. If our guru falls, we should not stop serving the vaiṣṇavas. If we can find somebody that we feel worthy of serving but if you can’t find somebody then at least go on with your devotional service at the best you can. And Don't be averse to trying to find someone to serve for before one was fixed on the guru, now where to fix one’s attention? That’s the idea that we are always in the mood of serving Kṛṣṇa through the vaiṣṇavas.

 

So that’s why the scriptures are recommending that if we do not have a guru to offer our services to then we should try to find some vaishnava that we can offer our services to Kṛṣṇa through. We should continue to go on with her services thinking about Srila Prabhupāda and the Guru parampara. We want to help Prabhupāda in any case and our Guru is also representing Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa. So we find some way ,we can help in some service and in that way we can focus and till that time when we should want in our devotional service and focus on Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa. Take help from different vaiṣṇavas,  and serve the vaiṣṇavas. 

 

A Gaudiya Guru topic I have answered many times, that when a guru falls, can he again act as a guru when he comes back. Some Gurus fall and in the sense like… There is one guru called Jnani Prabhu who was a sannyāsīs and he got married. He took permission. He got married and he has been serving as a temple president. He is a very good devotee and it has been 6 years now. And there is a discussion about authorising him to initiate again as a householder guru. It was decided to have some discussion, atleast to have an informal discussion. There is nothing to stop some guru,I mean... if he is properly situated then he can even initiate again. Ishwara Prabhu – there is a resolution about him. That he also took permission and he also got married. He said living in Brazil  that he was not able to function as a sannyāsīs probably because of his nature or whatever. So he has been put on probation as a Guru and not allowed to initiate but he is giving shiksha, guidance to his disciples so that they go on with service. Sometime in the future, they would again like him to take up the service of initiating after he proves himself to be properly situated. It is quite possible. 

 

It is so happening that gurus who are not envious, who are not addicted to some kind of abnormal sense gratification – then they could come back and go on with their guru service.  Even if they have a fall down, which is not of such a major nature and then are still going on with their service then they can still function as a guru and give shiksha and everything for their disciples. But it is considered by the GBC when they advise the disciples. 

 

As far as counselors groups for the leaders,what I understood from that is it sounds like something is useful we should not be sent to the Guru at first for them to consider.

 

There was some discussion where I also made a proposal of a buddy system that one Guru helps some other Guru so there remains a check. There are some kind of support groups for Gurus like a kind of …. they keep a track of all the gurus, what are they all doing and everything and I don’t know if that is exactly the thing. I need to see the whole thing in writing. But there is something in that direction as a group. Just to clarify with what is happening with Gurus. 

 

Do all our Gurus know if they can deliver their disciples? Srila Prabhupāda wrote in 1968 that there are 2 kinds of gurus – those gurus who are already like... eternally liberated, nitya siddhas like Narada Muni and there is another kind of gurus who are liberated by way of following. Srila Prabhupāda said that I am following my Guru Mahārāja Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur who is a liberated Guru and I am liberated by following him. So, Prabhupāda was teaching us by his example – the attitude. So Prabhupāda said that if someone is chanting 16 rounds and also following the 4 regulative principles and takes initiation in the disciplic succession from a bonafide Guru, then I will deliver them. So as far as myself, I think I can deliver my disciples based on Prabhupāda’s promise. I will just follow what Prabhupāda said and Prabhupāda has promised that they will be delivered. So on the basis of training them up strictly following Srila Prabhupāda’s process then we will be delivered. We are seeing that devotees are advancing. In that way, it’s a process,that's a.... 

 

Prabhupāda once said in a lecture that RamKṛṣṇa he made this whole this… in [unclear-11:48] there was a lila. He came to Vivekananda and said that I want your Shakti. Give me your Shakti and then RamKṛṣṇa touched him upon his head and then as the pastime or whatever you want to call it; the story goes like this that RamKṛṣṇa zapped at Vivekananda and he fell to the ground unconscious and when he came conscious, RamKṛṣṇa was crying – You have taken all my Shakti now nothing is left here. I am finished – hahahaha. 

 

And Prabhupāda said this is all bogus. It is not like something some kind of …..like that but by teaching the process of devotional service, and by giving blessings and praying to Kṛṣṇa and so on. There are many different ways by which the Guru builds up the devotee’s service attitude and devotional nature and by practicing devotional service they go back to Kṛṣṇa.  Even Prabhupāda said that it’s like those birds flying in some kind of formation, the Guru is like the lead bird. It’s not like that he can chant your rounds for you and he can do everything for you. Otherwise you will be like “Gurudev, could you chant my rounds today because I am a bit down today? you know...We have to go on with our service by following the guidance of the guru and by following his instructions and serving him, Kṛṣṇa is pleased and in this way we get delivered. So the parampara process about our deliverance. It’s dont know like they are kind of trying to make a mystic idea of some super guru who kind of “Zig-Zags” his disciples and he gets delivered. There is a process and we follow this whole process of nava-vidha bhakti and we give the divya jñāna that has been handed down by Prabhupāda. We give down the process. 

 

One time Prabhupāda, he told some of his followers that you have to become pure enough so that the devotees – simply by serving you they will benefit. In other words, a devotee should do some tapasya rather than…. We should do some tapasya, we should do some devotional service so that the people, by serving us they will be benefitted. 

 

So that way I do not have any doubt that, I do not personally doubt that Gurus in ISKCON can deliver their disciples because the process is there. Prabhupāda’s mercy is there. If the Guru is following, he is giving the message without changing it. Prabhupāda said being a Guru is not difficult - if the guru is properly delivering the message then why can they not deliver their disciples? But if the guru does not follow, if he is changing things – you only have to follow this and you don’t have to follow that; then you are taking a risk. Then you have to depend on that guru to deliver. Right.

 

If some Guru says that you don’t have to follow regular sex, you don’t have to follow vegetarian diet, you don’t have to follow no intoxication, you don’t have to follow strictly worshiping Kṛṣṇa – you can worship even Goddess Durga and you don’t have to follow offering bhoga – he is introducing so many things which are not recommended by Prabhupāda then Prabhupāda does not going to be delivering people. that's ok,  then it's up to them, you can probably  imagine where they are gonna head , and where their followers gonna head.

 

But if some Guru is following the parampara strictly and he is giving you the same teachings as handed down by the parampara then even if he is not on the same level as some of the previous Acharya or any of the previous Acharyas. If he is just strictly following and giving the message, he is a messenger bearing that divya jñāna and by following that devotees will be delivered. So we are seeing devotees in ISKCON – they are advancing, they are getting a taste for chanting and they are progressing. It’s not that people are being cheated or anything. 

 

But when some guru or any devotee stops following Srila Prabhupāda strictly, then you see that they just lose it – they just lose whatever Shakti that they have. They may have some good karma or that, but they don’t have the same kind of potency to give people that divya jñāna. 

 

So we should stress the principle of following – that is really the point. That puts Srila Prabhupāda in the centre – you are following Srila Prabhupāda and the disciplic succession. If you try to create some kind of mystique that the Guru has to be like some super Maha Bhagavat – and then try to create something like that then that will promote….(Just one more question, you can start packing this up).

 

It is difficult to understand whether the guru referred to is the shiksha or diksha guru. When it says about mantra grahana – then you are talking about diksha guru because mantra guru means diksha guru. Also, when it says about rejecting a Guru, Jiva Goswami and everyone is talking about taking shelter again, of another guru. They just want us to signify both diksha and shiksha guru – primarily one takes shelter of a diksha guru. So this is a common kind of confusion that the ritvik says. Whenever it says guru, they say it must be shiksha guru. But we have already addressed that. Whenever it says guru and it does not qualify then that means all Gurus. If it specifically says shiksha guru or diksha guru or instructor guru then it is referring to one and when it says ashraya Guru, then it would  normally consider the diksha guru. And in some cases, shiksha gurus are also ashraya gurus but normally the ashraya guru is the one you take initiation from.

 

So it's not too difficult to understand this talking about a diksha guru but it also relates to siksha guru, sometimes one may say guru that passes away – we are going to have situations in ISKCON: someone might have taken initiation when they are 14 years old and the guru might have been 75 and the Guru leaves his body and so then someone feels that I may need a shiksha guru. Then they may take a shiksha guru and they may be following under the shiksha guru – who may be a bonafide diksha guru. They will be taking personal guidance and serving their shiksha guru.

 

So what happens if a shiksha guru has a problem ,they may have to reject their shiksha guru. So it applies to both, not that it applies to only one - Whichever guru you are taking shelter from. If you are not taking shelter from a guru then it is not such an important thing about rejecting the guru. And I mean, if you think that there is a need to talk about this particular topic more? So everybody clear? anybody think any other session of this? Okay

 

We can go back to godhead even without initiation even according to the, according to the authorities, the harināma is powerful enough to take us back, but the point is that we should… It is also recommended that if one has the opportunity to serve a guru or to take shelter of a guru – for Kṛṣṇa is coming from inside as the Super soul, outside as the Guru.  So if Kṛṣṇa is coming to you as a bonafide Guru and out of some false ego or something you just reject that I don’t want to serve a Guru, I’ll just do it on my own – then that’s offensive. 

 

Otherwise say you may give a book to someone. Like people got the books in Vladivostok and they didn’t see devotees for so many years but they were chanting and following everything from getting one Bhagavad Gita. Have heard according to Prabhavishnu Maharaj. And probably if someone died chanting they will also go back to Godhead. But once they met some bonafide guru and then they thought well I have been doing this long without a guru. I don’t want any Guru – that is like taking Kṛṣṇa’s mercy and refusing it. So Kṛṣṇa may send one some help. That helps we should take it. But one must want to be really sure – is this really a bonafide guru, is it someone I can put my faith in. That caution is also recommended – that one should test the Guru. The Guru can test the disciple. Things like that.

 

But the principle is that we should serve a Vaishnava, even if he is not formal as a Guru immediately. We just serving some advanced devotees, taking some instruction, developing some relationships. While one has only the first initiation, if they don’t want to do deity worship, they don’t have to take a second initiation. Prabhupāda, there was one… He gave some disciple first initiation – he said there is no need to take a second initiation.  I mean he is a simple guy. It's not like he should become a pujari, he doesn't have to take a second initiation. He can go back to Godhead simply with first initiation. Probably if someone is living in the temple or probably he wants to take a second initiation – then it’s up to them. 

 

I remember at one circumstance, a Guru was on probation and he was not removed but the disciple wanted to take second initiation and it would take many years before he could get it. So then, in that case, the person giving the second was like, was giving the second, but one still had the first initiation guru – so a bit complicated. There are cases like that in ISKCON also. Anyone last question?

 

What other topics would you like to hear? We have one more day for Guru tattva. Any other topics specifically devotees would like to have discussed or just general questions and answers tomorrow. So one option is just question and answer; anyone else has some specific topic that they would like to discuss. 

 

 I mean ,In some cases like I was surprised when a Guru put in a resignation letter.  Normally, we take a year or two or three before some Guru is completely kept out on suspension. In 1987, for 2 years to see whether they would come back, but what happened. Now it's like , Guru send in a resignation letter. So it's like he says I resign and I am no longer Guru, disciples are no longer my disciples.so it's like a kind of Guru is telling his disciples that I am not your Guru anymore. So it is kind of a unique phenomenon. Normally, before the disciple even can decide should I reject my Guru or not, already the Guru is saying you know , our relationship is rejected. So, the disciple does not have to go through the trauma ,you know the thing that whether I should reject or not. He is already saying that I am resigning. I am no longer your Guru. 

 

So there are specific resolutions that happened for specific Gurus. I don’t know if that’s appropriate to discuss in a public board but that’s anyways public resolutions so everyone’s going to read them anyway. (Question) I am not going to take it today. I am just trying to figure out what I should take tomorrow. I am not going to open up a new topic. I just want to figure out what we are going to discuss tomorrow.

 

Is somebody asking what about this Guru or that Guru – what about Harikesh or what about; what’s their status now? Does everyone know about what the GBC resolutions are in this. Do you want to hear that tomorrow? That plus questions and answers? Okay. Is this Guru Tattva? I mean…I thought that this year I didn’t know what was going to happen in the GBC meetings but I figured whatever, something is going to happen; It will be significant and therefore there should be some time for the devotees - some presentations. So I put this time in for this Guru Tattva seminar. Is this a good idea? (reply: Yes) 

 

I am very grateful that other Gurus and GBCs are participating. So probably you saw the scenario that if in ISKCON it wasn’t so much focused on the diksha guru. Diksha gurus will also have some small relationships with other Gurus and other vaiṣṇavas. Even in Lord Caitanya’s time, there was a very significant focus on diksha gurus but it is not completely like a singular focus.You know Diksha guru gets the first mention and then the Shiksha gurus and others. So  then in case ,if any other Gurus have a problem, then one would feel very much protected and sheltered by so many vaiṣṇavas. So that was the situation in the time of Lord Caitanya. Narahari Thakur also mentioned that you can go with the Bhajanamrta [unclear = 23:58-24:00] we can see those quotes if those are useful. 

 

I think that it is very very offensive that the followers of Ritvik Ism reject – they say that we don’t want to take anything else other than Srila Prabhupāda. That is one of their deviations. Prabhupāda himself said that…The words of these Acharyas are like Shastra and Prabhupāda himself mentions about rejecting the Guru and but he never said; he does not give all the options because may be at that point it wasn’t pertinent to talk about it to his disciples. But he did say that we should take the advice from Shastra and from our previous acharyas. So they…You see Bhakti Vinoda Thakur, Jiva Goswami, Narahari Thakur – these are all our Gurus. Every one of them and none of them are at any contradictions with each other. Just each one like, Jiva Goswami prominently talked more about shiksha, Narahari talked more about the practical issues and the step by step thing and Bhakti Vinoda also gave this step by step thing and he just made an overview of everything.

 

I didn’t find any contradiction between Prabhupāda and these other authorities. We will discuss them sometime. Although today it is a difficult topic to discuss and difficult to see ,which level we are; 100% guarantee that you know... no one will ever fall down. But I don’t see that it is such a possibility. All we can try to do is be more careful and be more protective. 

 

At the same time, this is renewed my faith that Kṛṣṇa is always protecting his devotees. Because Kṛṣṇa says that Guru is my representative and if Guru stops to represent Kṛṣṇa then Kṛṣṇa just exposes that Guru. So immediately if he is not following, then everybody can see him. You know after sometime it is proved that he is not following. So that to me, you know, it is that Kṛṣṇa is showing to his devotees that this person is not worthy to be my representative anymore. Surely Kṛṣṇa gave some opportunities for rectification but when that rectification didn’t come then Kṛṣṇa has to protect his devotees from not following someone who is not representing him. Diksha gurus – even their instruction is right now to associate with vaiṣṇavas and as soon as possible follow their instructions and getting guidance from different devotees. Use your own intelligence from the Shastra. In this way if you find someone from whom you can take shelter from then take shelter. Continue with your devotional service and don’t leave it. Hare Kṛṣṇa

 

If still someone here wishes to write to me or if any other questions come up, I am always happy to communicate with you. I will give you my email address to everyone. Any questions come up.

 

I will be writing some books this year, I will be staying some more time in India and write some small books for people; on some questions that the Ritviks bow down to. Try to make things more clear for devotees. Also help me get everything very clear in my mind. Prabhupāda said it is purifying to write. So I will like to get any other questions or if anything else that comes up I will be happy to always welcome to communicate.  

 

Transcribed by: Premeswari Padmavati Dd

Transcribed on: 1-Aug-2020

Proofreading By: Amrita Padma Devi Dasi On 04/10/2020

Proofreading By: Revathi Mtji On 09/12/2020