19820502 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.21.17

(Disclaimer: The following is a machine-generated transcript and may contain errors or inaccuracies. It will be reviewed and verified against the original audio soon.)

The following is a lecture given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami Mahārāja on May 2, 1982 – in Atlanta, USA. The lecture begins with a reading from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.21.17.

This spiritual movement, if we became political, then we would exclude various people.

I heard one take when you were.

Speaking in Los Angeles.

The wife of the communist minister of Nawabee was coming to the temples.

Is she still coming?

She came and took Prasadam after that. I can’t say how often she’s come, but some have also visited my airport. The ministers don’t come, but their wives come and their relatives and brothers in laws. One time, one drove into the Māyāpur temple, as if by accident. He just drove in, turned his car on and went out. He wanted to see it, but he wouldn’t get out. Once he’s a deity, they have some restriction that they’re not supposed to believe in God. So then if they come out, we will immediately engage them in some kind of devotional service. It’s all artificial. Are they.

Do you think they’re actually atheisted completely?

Some of them are. Most of them are. Most of the people that vote on a communist ticket don’t do it because they’re atheists. To get the vote of the people india, they have to tell the people that actually they’re all devotees. But just for the party thing, they just show that actually on a side, they all do prayers. So that way the people say, oh, yes, of course. Otherwise the people wouldn’t vote. And they’re only voting in Bengal because it’s so overpopulated. There’s so many problems. Anybody that says they will solve the problems, they vote them in. Then after four years, if they don’t solve it, and they kick them out and vote someone else, it’s going on like this for.

Yes, it seems that in America there’s a. A slight disadvantage in relation to India because he was personally there performing all his pests. Part of their tradition, their culture. It seems like in America we’re at a slight disadvantage for spreading the ocean’s movement because it’s not part of whatever culture or history we have here.

In every place, there is advantages and disadvantages. In Bengal, it’s very difficult to preach the movement of Lord Caitanya because everybody already thinks they know all about Lord Caitanya. But in fact, most of them have been polluted by different kind of upper sampradāya or bogus sampradāya philosophy, which, just like we have a namhat in a certain village. And in that village there was one lady that was initiated by one of Prabhupāda’s God brothers. But all of her children, they went to Navadib to get initiated by caste goswamis. So were asked them, why did you know, not even be initiated in the same mother? They said, well, in the strict Kṛṣṇa conscious sampradāya, you can’t take any fish. But the Casco swami will give us initiation and we can also take fish. That’s better. So you get all this kind of.

It’s very hard to preach pure philosophy because people are very sentimental. They want a guru, and for them it’s just like, you know, I have to get baptized or something. Then they look and they say, well, this guru, he says, we have to follow four regular principles. And that one says we only have to follow two. So this is better deal, you know, it’s like looking into one answer, oh, hey, look at this. We got sail today. Because, you know, they’re not thinking that. They’re not really going into it philosophically. They just think, I have to get baptized, I have to have a guru. And then it’s just a show bottle thing. It’s not an actual real guru. They don’t actually cement. It’s just a, you know, oh, I have a guru.

So there’s so many disadvantages that to actually preach pure Khan, we become very unpopular with many other groups because we have to say, well, this isn’t right. That isn’t right. This isn’t right. So then, you know, they’re trying to say, well, everyone should be, you know, like, you know, you do your thing and we do our thing, and it’s all, you know, kind of like a hippie philosophy or something. Everyone just do whatever they like. So in Kṛṣṇa Kaja, we’re trying to. We’re reforming, we’re trying to establish what is the pure standard. So in many ways, it’s very difficult. In Bengal, you can get lots of followers, but it’s very hard to get lots of followers who will follow purely in that sense.

In the west, there’s a great advantage because anyone that joins the Kṛṣṇa Khan doesn’t have to hear so many adverse philosophies, different kind of Mayavari, impersonal and different other kind of philosophy so much. Śrīla Prabhupāda gave the example that in New York, one of his disciples told him that when I went to learn how to play drum, then the school, I asked how much it would cost. They said, it will cost, you know, $10 if you have never had any lessons before. And if you have had lessons before, it will cost you $20. And they said, why? If I have had lessons before, then I should cost me less. They said no, because whatever anyone else taught you is all wrong and we have to reteach you everything over again.

You will be so stubborn that you already learned it some other way that, you know, when we try to teach you, it could take us twice as long. So it’s similar situation in the spiritual. When a person doesn’t have isn’t confused with so many impersonal Mayawari or other type of misinterpretations, then in one sense it’s much better. Actually, the Indians themselves are frustrated. They don’t want to hear anymore from indian sadhus to some extent, just because everyone is just interpreting according to their own whims. And then to get some followers, they’re adjusting and changing, and so people are practicing and not getting the benefit.

So then when they see that the devotees are coming from the west, from America and from Europe, that gives them a greater faith, because they feel that while someone who surrendered to Kṛṣṇa from such a rich country obviously hasn’t done it to make himself rich, who would come to India to get rich if he’s already born in America, there’s plenty of money there. So they feel that someone, these people are sincere, they have a basic faith, and so they’re attracted to hear from them about spiritual life because they have already lost their faith in so many different imitation gurus that are there india who have compromised the true teachings. So in this way, they’re very eager to hear from devotees from foreign countries, and it has a much greater effect. So that’s the advantage, that foreigners go there and preach.

To some extent, it’s an advantage, but nonetheless, there’s a lot, many difficulties. Also, in every part of India, there’s a different difficulty. In other parts of India, they don’t know Lord Caitanya. They may be very attached. In some parts, like Bihar, they’re very attached to the concept of liberation. Bhakti is just. I mean, Bhakti is just for liberation. And in south India, they’re very attached to Karmakhanda. They worship Kalia, Kṛṣṇa in a mood. They worship the Nagapatnis, the wives of Kalia. They worship in that mood that the Naga Putneys worship Kṛṣṇa and pray to please save our husband. So they come and do a whole worship of Kṛṣṇa and say, our husband is a great sinner. He’s not a devotee, he’s an offender. He breaks all the regular principles, but please have mercy on him like you had on the demon Kalia.

And they do worship like that for their husband in a completely karmakanda type of mood. So there’s all kind of, you know, in every place, they have so many difficulties that to actually preach pure Bhakti, we forget that out of thousands of people, one’s interested in spiritual life, and out of thousands of those, one is actually reaches perfection. And of thousands of those, one is actually a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That even the people, they’re mainly not interested in spiritual life. Even they do some kind of religion, it’s only for material advancement. A little higher up is for liberation. And those are very rare. And even the people that are for liberation, to actually get them to be pure devotees is very difficult. They don’t understand that concept. It’s something which is very rare.

But we can get people to chant hare Kṛṣṇa very easily that we have seen, because the people are pious. Wherever people are more pious, it’s easier to get them to chant. In South India, in South America also, people chant hare Kṛṣṇa quite easily, although they’re addicted to so many bad habits, but they chant hare Kṛṣṇa very easily. Pravda said that there are more pious, he felt, than North Americans. But North Americans may be a little more, maybe more intelligent. So in every time and place, every circumstance, there may be different ways of reaching the people. The thing is, Prabhupāda said, sometimes easy come, easy go, someone made more and more difficult to get. But once you get, they make very good devotees. So we have to concentrate on making devotees.

And one can always think that this other place, this place, every place may have its advantages or disadvantages, but we have to use our. Our intelligence and pray to Lord Caitan Nityānanda to benedict us. We can attract the souls of the place where we are. There are definitely pious souls. America, 93% of the people believe in God. That means at least they believe that there is God. In other countries, they don’t even have that high a percentage. It’s considered, I think, the second or third most God believing country in the world, America. So there’s a great field here, but people, they have, you know, so many misconceptions about Kṛṣṇa consciousness or about. They have this idea that anything from outside of America is a cult, and there’s bad publicity because of so many bogus cults around.

So definitely there’s different handicaps, but we have to be the perfect example of what a Kansas devotee is. And if we persevere and actually surrender to Lord Nithyananda, get his mercy, definitely they will send so many souls to take part in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Movement this year, there should be a big drive. How many souls we can bring to the Sunday feast, how many souls we can bring to the festival, how many people, when they come here, we can treat them very personally, very nicely, and convince them to stay over for a couple of days and preach to them. And then when they’re in new Bhakta program, that they’re treated very personally and explain their philosophy very nicely. And definitely devotees will be made. Just a question of concentrating on that.

Maybe our Mahavirya, along with his service in the band, he will be concentrating on bringing fallen souls here. If he puts his mind to it, I know he can do it, but he’s very independent of what he wants to put his mind to.

It has to be a total temple effort.

It has to be a total temple effort. And that’s not a one man, it’s a total, the one AP. People that are a little favorable take a personal desire that to bring him actually to the temple, to bring him to associate with the devotees. You see, a person has a little faith. He likes the books, he likes what he sees, he likes the Kṛṣṇa. That means he has little faith. The next thing is somehow to get him to associate with devotees. Then when he’s associating with devotees, and the next stage is to get him to actually practice a little bit of Kṛṣṇakra, to start chanting himself, the same thing that RPA Goswami says. Then one gets purified from the contaminations and then can become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

So it starts from every devotee seeing a person with little faith, encouraging them to come and associate with the devotees. And then when it comes associated with the devotees, it comes with the devotees giving that association on the spiritual platform.

Yes, in that regard, speaking about increasing the amount of people we had at Sunday feast myself, and never much we discussed in spots, you know, something like grow silver. You can just get a bicycle, ride down the street with some flowers and just get around everybody’s door. Nice idea to get people coming. That’s how people around here advertise for their new businesses. They just go out and.

There should be just on the sign also. It should be saying, like, open house or something. I don’t know, like, welcome people. You should think about all the different ways. I am sure there are many ways. And handing out flyers is definitely inexpensive, easy way to cover a whole particular area. I know my, I know some boys, when they were delivering newspapers, used to take the flyers, but then he had to put half of them down the gutter, get the money for giving him out. But if you have someone that’s actually sincere giving him out to every house, then it’s not very expensive. They’re such nice cookies. Possibly if, you know, even if the cookies are put people, usually in America, people, they don’t mind eating anything.

We had a little, you know, sometimes in some particular, you know, when the school’s let out or when something, you know, some ideal spots give out little, you know, people come up and get little samples of the cookies or something, and then they give out the flyer, come to the Sunday feast, things like that. And people take a little prasanna, then there may be books there that they can get, if they’re interested, then maybe, habanes, to goshen, people discuss all different ideas, how to increase that, bringing people to Sunday feast and increase, and then whatever is practical then can be implemented. Because San Diego, they made, they got 75 devotees now. They made 25 devotees the last year, two a month, and they’re planning to make 40 in the next eight months. Average of five a month, they make more.

But that’s what they got fixed. Devotees in the temple, there’s a couple few that don’t make it.

San Diego is not as large as Atlanta.

No, it’s not as large as. Right. And San Diego, there’s so many other cities nearby, but Atlanta is like the whole, I mean, this is it. In Georgia, there’s not much else. But in California, you take your pick. La, there’s Laguna beach down the road or something. But San Diego is just a small little place. Yes. Tibra bhakti.

Yes. They had in Kṛṣṇa, Levi, in Vrindavan, on the planet earth. Did they have spiritual bodies?

Why not?

Well, then, if they did, then did they have the decisions of Lord to tell you also spiritual bodies?

Why not? Eternal associate of Kṛṣṇa, Lord Caitanya, their body is in any case, spiritualized. Some may be coming for the first time, and some may be eternal associates that are coming down from the spiritual sky. So in that regard, they can. Spiritual body is unlimited. It can manifest the material, apparently material form, if it wants, if it’s necessary for the pastime. So there’s no basic difference in any case, because even a material body is completely spiritualized. So it’s not really a material body. So we don’t see that difference in that regard. We don’t differentiate whether they had. What happened, huh? No. Usually I give them out. She was trying to do without asking. As I said, it’s risky. So we don’t see any basic difference like that.

We take it that whether or not one has a fully spiritual body, or whether one is spiritualized body, that there’s no basic difference. But the eternal associates of the Lord who have come down from the spiritual world, their body is completely. Their form is completely spiritual, and they come in the same form that they have in the spiritual skyd. So in this way, the form is completely spiritualized. And when we associate with Lord Caitanya, we manifest our eternal form. But for the sake of living in the material being, in a material world, it’s not like one appears out of place. They appear extraordinary. They have some effulgence, or they have some type of special presents to them, a special aura about them. But they don’t appear to be not having a material body. They don’t appear to not fit in, so to speak.

They don’t appear to be some kind of fear material being. At the same time, their body is not subjected to the laws of material nature.

Yes, I had read the preaching of.

The essence and two different places. I remember I was just.

At one.

Point that, well, preachers cannot live an easy going life. And that, you know, there’s so many people who will attack his body, just like they did in the case of Lord Nicholas high court, Jesus Christ. And then in another prayer point, another prayer, for he says that Christian says that his body will note, perish and brother Shenandez will protect. So I was wondering, is this protection pertaining to the material body, or if the protection is solely directly for the soul or the body or both?

Is that the protection you want? Is that the protection you want?

Well, you know, since I am not in a very advanced position, you know, to some extent, I want my material body protected, but of course, I want my soul ultimately protected.

Just like Maharaj, what was his name, he prayed that he could be taken, his life could be taken while he was still young and healthy, so that way he would die chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then Śrīla Prabhupāda said that for the devotee to live, you know, to leave our body 20 years this way or that way is no big difference. The main thing we’re concerned about is we can leave in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so devotee will never perish. Of course, for the devotee, if the devotee leaves the body, we have to leave it sooner or later. So it’s obvious that sometime we’re gonna leave our body, because this material body cannot last forever. So for the devotee, his main concern is that when he does leave it, he’s in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

We have many examples that if the demon tried to kill the devotee, Kṛṣṇa would protect him like Prahlad, Haridas Tak or. And even in the Kansas movement there were different devotees that were captured and threatened, but somehow or other they generally survived. It may be that sometimes devotees, every devotee is going to leave. So some devotees are actually praying that I hope to leave while I am preaching or leaving the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. And that is not perishing, that is achieving their eternal life. So the devotee never perishes. Of course, we see that Arjuna, he fought in the battlefield. He survived while Duryodon died. But then Arjuna himself voluntarily took the depressedan where he went into the mountains to go back to Kṛṣṇa.

So Mahaprasthan, so this is the main thing that the devotees want in their protection, that they may never forget about Kṛṣṇa, that they may always be Kṛṣṇa conscious. If we’re defending Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they give up their life. That’s the most glorious thing. There’s no difficulty about that. In general, we see that Kṛṣṇa doesn’t allow his devotee to leave in a he wants his devotee to immaturely. He wants his devotee to remain and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But sometimes he has to call the devotee away because there is some service somewhere else. So the devotee has the faith that Kṛṣṇa won’t call me away unless it’s my time to go. And when I do go, I won’t perish, but I will achieve my eternal life. It’s definite that Kṛṣṇa also protects the devotees body. But we can’t obviously that we’re going to leave the body sometimes.

So it’s not that this is the basis. Sometimes we have to leave. Just like Bhishma, he was shot through and through with arrows. But then when he left in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And everyone knew that he was going back to Godhead. So it wasn’t a question that Kṛṣṇa didn’t let him perish. He just left his body and entered into eternal life. Well, three don’t and the others, I mean, they perished.

In connection with this story of the butcher, the sannyasis of Brahmachar. And it says with Brahmachar it’s best that he dies. Now he’s practicing so many austerities, but I was just wondering, if a person is hosted and they practice austerities but they leave the body, do they go back to the home?

If Grihast is the Grihasta Brahman charity, following the rules of Grihast ashram, then he’s Grihastra Brahmanshan. Prava said that there’s not that difference. And then he can go back to Godhead. But if one is not strictly following, and it’s difficult to strictly follow, then there’s a danger if one dies in that consciousness, he may have to come back almost. It’s very difficult to achieve liberation, to achieve Kṛṣṇa.

And I was just thinking in terms of how it is that sometimes they said in Babitan that a person dies thinking about his wife or whatever, instead of thinking about Christian, he might come back as a female. So I was just thinking if the Grahas Obamachar is practiced with something austerities, but at the time of death, he realizes, what about my wife? I think, will Kṛṣṇa have babies? Perhaps especially mercy upon him and allow him to enter the spiritual kingdom anyway because of his austerities and so on.

The fruit of the austerities is that the fruit of the practice of remembering Kṛṣṇa is then at that time, we think about Kṛṣṇa. It’s like the final examination. You’re practicing your whole life thinking about Kṛṣṇa, thinking about engaging your wife or family into service of Kṛṣṇa. Then if one is actually developing properly this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Kṛṣṇa will give the mercy that he can think about Kṛṣṇa. Obviously, the danger is more as a grihastha, because the attachments are strong. That’s why one is recommended that at the last period of life, it’s better if one is separated, like bhakti vid. No, Thakur lived with his family, but even as Guru said, you’re already a sannyāsī. You don’t have to take sannyas. But the last few years of his life, he went to Jagannath Purī and just in a Bhakti khuti, in a little Bhajan Kutti.

He was there across from Haridaz Takwa’s house. We were taken over that place. At least we won the bid on it, and we’re finalizing the lease agreement with the government. And there he worshiped Kṛṣṇa, showing the example of just the last leg of life. Kṛṣṇa gives an indication that this is the end coming. So then one just fully fixes his mind on Kṛṣṇa, that there’s nothing I can do anymore for my family or for now, I have to just think of Kṛṣṇa now. They’re going to be on their own in a couple of years. They’re going to be on their own now, at least at the last leg like that.

And if someone actually in some kind of preaching effort, if he leaves his body, of course, then no matter what he’s thinking about, just like a katria, if he lives in the battlefield, he can think of anything. He goes to the sun plant. If a devotee actually dies while engaging in the Sankirtan, if that were to happen somehow, then Śrīla Prabhupāda said he’s guaranteed to go to the spiritual kingdom in connection.

Last time you were here, you also mentioned that soldiers, when they leave the body, they go to the sun planet.

Yes.

So even if they’re staying involved like all so many soldiers died stay in Vietnam or.

(Side B of the Cassette)

I don’t see if a katria dies in the battle. A lot of people died in Vietnam with bullets in the back of their head. A lot of people died, you know, in various circumstances, you know, died from belly aches and stuff. But if they actually died in the battle and they were courageously fighting, so that’s glorious. I mean, even in these other battles, it’s not glorious. The whole political purpose of it isn’t glorious. But the individual warrior, it’s something to consider. We see that in various indra and demon were fighting, and the demon, many places said that, well, if you just don’t run away. The demi demons were fighting for sense gratification with the demigods. It wasn’t any religious purpose, but when they were fighting, they ran away.

Then when they’re running away, they were being chastised by Vrittisur as being cowards and better to die in a battle. So, of course, if it’s a holy religious war, definitely it’s a different category. But in general, if a country dies in the battlefield, we know that if a person gives up his body because he’s a murderer, he’s absolved from sins. So taking that example, if a warrior dies in a battlefield who didn’t commit an actual, but he’s died in the battlefield, even if the battle may be some other kind of, how could it not have a purifying effect to absolve him of so many sinful reactions? But in terms of various situations, I heard one time, Prabhupda did qualify that these political wars don’t have the same purifying effect as if one is actually fighting for some religious principle, keeping off an aggressor.

And take it that it’s better to die fighting than to die running away. If your duty is a soldier, then ultimately the people that are telling you to fight, they’re responsible more than yourself. You’re just a soldier. You have to do your duty. But the people that are sending you, because they’re actually doing out of some political or economics, some other consideration, they will be very greatly responsible. Because they’re not actually engaging on some kind of religious or spiritual principle. They’re just doing it out of lust, greed, anger. So everybody doesn’t get away. Scot three. But if a person has no choice, he’s just a soldier. If he runs away, gets awol, he’s drafted, he has to fight. He’s getting the fruits of his karma to die there. So that’s absolving him for so many sins.

But how many times one has to die for killing cows and different things. The best way of absolving yourself from sins is to change Hare Kṛṣṇa and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. When you don’t go into the sun plant, you go back to Kṛṣṇa.

And speaking of death, I was noticing in the bak at the time, there’s two ways specifically where he says that, like, say, for example, you die of old age. You know, your throat is chilled, you can’t chant. And I have always heard that when Śrīla Prabhup was leaving his body, that he was always saying, well, don’t think it won’t happen to you. And so it’s a hard struggle to remember Kṛṣṇa. But then also there’s those kind of deaths that we read in the bhagavad tom, specifically about Bernard and Mooney. And it said that when he left his body, it was like a flash of lightning. And he just immediately his spiritual body just manifested, or like drew just stepped on the head.

It doesn’t say that Naruto Muni didn’t leave behind a material body when he died. It said as soon as he died, like a flash, he achieved his spiritual body. From the material point of view, there may have been a dead body there. It doesn’t say there wasn’t particularly. It says that as soon as he died, which death we understand, he left his body at that point, just like a flat. He immediately achieved his spiritual body. In other words, instead of continuing bounded to his subtle body, he achieved a spiritual form. It doesn’t particularly deny that he left behind a form. While other people like Dhruvimar has entered into a wrath and was taken to the higher planet. Does it mention that he left a body through the Mars? No, it doesn’t mention that. But he became spiritualized.

He’s a planet in this universe, but it’s a spiritual planet. So what was the point?

Well, the point was that, I was.

Wondering, in our case, when Śrīla Prabhupāda left, he wasn’t, he didn’t speak. But while the kīrtana was going on the whole time, the last day, although he didn’t speak, he didn’t eat, he didn’t evacuate for 15 hours the whole time. He don’t like to discuss it, but the whole time he was just chanting with his hand. His hand was moving while the kīrtana was going on. He was listening to the Kīrtana the whole time. And then in the end, he just leaned up and said Hare Kṛṣṇa three times, and that was it. There wasn’t any of the, you know, he was feeling some pain in his muscles, there were some cramps. But in spite of that, the whole time he was just absorbed in the kīrtana.

And he said, the reason why I am in this state is because I have accepted so many unqualified disciples that I have to be reduced to this particular state. But his mind, you can see that his mind never became, although he was forced to suffer, physical inconvenience like anything. I mean, to understate statement, but to take on the. To atone or whatever for the sins of all the disciples he had taken. But his consciousness never wavered from Kṛṣṇa for a second. And even up to the very last day he was translating the bhāgavata. It was only the last day. The second or last day was translating bhāgavata. I’d like the description of the materialists who lose all their faculties and become senile.

So we can also leave our bodies in a very blissful way, even though things may be undergoing some pain.

Yes, and I have had experience of having 107 fever and still feeling transcendental bliss, humble self, whatever. Not to be, not out of any proprietary. I am just saying that even in the midst of. I could feel that it was nothing, it wasn’t me. I am sure other devotees must have the same experiences. Hari Kṛṣṇa kids.